[LUNI] Linux Programming
jjstrauss at yahoo.com
Fri Mar 8 11:24:26 CST 2002
I'm reading the mythical man month right now, and seems to me, languages in
general from a productivity point of view, are only incrementally more/less
productive. The big jump occurred when we moved from assembler to Ada, C,
Fortran, Cobol...Perl, Java. The bulk of coding exists in design,
specification, and testing. Which is *I guess* what you're saying.
Not that anyone cares, or that this thread is answering the original post, I
like Perl, been off/on learning Java (I too wish for a Perl GUI and embedded
runtime in the Browser).
And in this corner:
Steve "Perl Pearl" Lembark
Martin "basher (Perl basher that is)" Maney
Now lets see a dirty fight, lets see the sh*t fly, off with the gloves
----- Original Message -----
From: "Martin Maney" <maney at pobox.com>
To: <luni at luni.org>
Sent: Friday, March 08, 2002 10:28 AM
Subject: Re: [LUNI] Linux Programming
> Ah, spring. It's my favorite time of the year - a time of renewal, of
> throwing out the detritus of the winter past, and for at least one good
> against illogic...
> On Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 09:37:36AM -0600, Steven Lembark wrote:
> > Main point w/ Perl is that the programmer has the option
> > of doing things how they feel is best. If you don't want
> Main problem w/ Perl is that the programmer has the option of disguising
> what he means with needlessly different ways of saying it. This whole
> notion that code should be as ad-hoc structured as natral language seems
> me to reflect a deep misunderstanding about what is the hard part of
> programming. OTOH, it's a very postmodern idea. You know what you get
> you cross a Mafia Don with a postmodernist, don't you? That's right, an
> offer you can't understand.
> > programmers to have control over the code why not just use
> > automatic code generation and be done with it?
> Coding is not the hard part. You may want to review essentially all the
> work done in the last couple decades on programming methodology if you're
> unclear about this.
> > These are a few reasons I find it easier to teach Perl
> > as a first language: Most of the coding effort goes
> Just want to draw attention to your statement that you're talking about
> teaching a *first* [programming] language here.
> > towards productive work rather than syntatic sugar.
> > Learning Java as a first language faces much the same
> > problem. Compare the amount of code it takes to just
> > 'print "Hello, world!\n";'. I also don't have to spend
> Wow, that's a lot of overhead. Here's the Python version:
> 'Hello, world!'
> Obviously the overhead of trivial programs is more important than anything
> else - we should never have given up Basic!
> > The other nice thing about Perl on *NIX is that you get
> > much of the C std library and unistd.h built into the
> > language (e.g., link, unlink, symlink, directory and
> > file tests). Intuitions based on C or shell operations
> > translate directly into Perl code. This makes it easier
> > to actually write code that does something useful early
> > in the learning cycle (e.g., scan a directory for files
> What a strange and irrational thing to say. People who are learning their
> *first* programming language already understand the C library routines?
> Pull the other one, Steven, this one's got bells on!
> > containing "Hello, world!"). Combined with the portability
> > to windog & Mac platforms this allows people to walk up
> > and deal with realistic problems quickly.
> Portability is another straw man - if serious portability is important,
> code in C, probably with some annoying omissions if you want to cover the
> more esoteric platforms that still have non-standard-compliant toolchains.
> Anywhere you can run Perl, there is a C compiler available: that's how
> got there, after all.
> I must say I find television very educational.
> The minute somebody turns it on,
> I go to the library and read a good book. -- Groucho Marx
> (sometimes I think we should s/television/internet/ ...)
> Linux Users Of Northern Illinois - Technical Discussion
> luni at luni.org
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