From mike at cathey.us Sat Sep 1 08:37:07 2007 From: mike at cathey.us (Mike Cathey) Date: Sat Sep 1 07:05:29 2007 Subject: [LUNI] Mouning Xen Disk Images In-Reply-To: <457788.15949.qm@web33814.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <457788.15949.qm@web33814.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <011F5423-11DE-4104-85FC-EA8BF3577042@cathey.us> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Aug 31, 2007, at 7:28 AM, Jeff Gutierrez wrote: > 2. Is it advisable to use LVM in a disk image used by Xen? Would I > be better of if I didn't use LVM? For what it's worth, I use a VG in dom0 (as opposed to a disk image) as a container for all of the LVs for the domUs on my personal Xen box. Cheers, Mike -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (Darwin) iD8DBQFG2U7kfJ4S993ZvP0RAlFnAKCOyU0gY4U1v/Rk39VZokKPDQu2rQCdHD2L HZJ1l4qGb9xf7g9DqUi/KTo= =cR7T -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From jeffgoot at yahoo.com Sat Sep 1 06:54:38 2007 From: jeffgoot at yahoo.com (Jeff Gutierrez) Date: Sat Sep 1 07:54:48 2007 Subject: [LUNI] Mouning Xen Disk Images Message-ID: <841696.62302.qm@web33814.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mike, > For what it's worth, I use a VG in dom0 (as opposed to a disk image) > as a container for all of the LVs for the domUs on my personal Xen box. A co-worker had pointed that out so I started over and re-created the VM. Now I have 2 LVs per VM, one for swap and another for root partition. Thanks, Jeff ----- Original Message ---- From: Mike Cathey To: Linux Users Of Northern Illinois - Technical Discussion Sent: Saturday, September 1, 2007 6:37:07 AM Subject: Re: [LUNI] Mouning Xen Disk Images -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Aug 31, 2007, at 7:28 AM, Jeff Gutierrez wrote: > 2. Is it advisable to use LVM in a disk image used by Xen? Would I > be better of if I didn't use LVM? For what it's worth, I use a VG in dom0 (as opposed to a disk image) as a container for all of the LVs for the domUs on my personal Xen box. Cheers, Mike -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (Darwin) iD8DBQFG2U7kfJ4S993ZvP0RAlFnAKCOyU0gY4U1v/Rk39VZokKPDQu2rQCdHD2L HZJ1l4qGb9xf7g9DqUi/KTo= =cR7T -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- Linux Users Of Northern Illinois - Technical Discussion http://luni.org/mailman/listinfo/luni From svbechtolsheim at yahoo.com Sat Sep 1 09:51:07 2007 From: svbechtolsheim at yahoo.com (Stephan V Bechtolsheim) Date: Sat Sep 1 10:57:55 2007 Subject: [LUNI] Testing IDE drives Message-ID: <411597.57974.qm@web51611.mail.re2.yahoo.com> What's the best utility to use to test an IDE drive? I don't care about the info that is stored on the IDE drive. I just want to run a program and get an answer along the lines of "keep" or "throw away". "badblocks" looks OK to me for that purpose - any other suggestions? If using badblocks is it worth to first do a "read only scan" before going to mode where blocks are written out to disk and then read back in? The "read in all the blocks mode" seems to be much faster, but if that skips over more than 20% of the errors that would be discovered with "write and read", then I am not interested. Thanks. StvB From mswier at yahoo.com Sat Sep 1 18:19:20 2007 From: mswier at yahoo.com (Mike Swier) Date: Sat Sep 1 19:19:48 2007 Subject: [LUNI] ANN: NWCLUG's next meeting 9/4/07 Message-ID: <715367.25415.qm@web57007.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Hi, NWCLUG's next meeting will be at Harper College in A238 at 7pm on Tuesday 9/4/07. For (a bit) more info see http://nwclug.org/httpd/html/meetings.html#nextmtg mikie -------------- next part -------------- -- Linux Users Of Northern Illinois - Announcements Mailing List http://luni.org/mailman/listinfo/luni-announce From maney at two14.net Sun Sep 2 10:18:43 2007 From: maney at two14.net (Martin Maney) Date: Sun Sep 2 09:18:57 2007 Subject: [LUNI] Testing IDE drives In-Reply-To: <411597.57974.qm@web51611.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <411597.57974.qm@web51611.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20070902141843.GA10647@furrr.two14.net> On Sat, Sep 01, 2007 at 08:51:07AM -0700, Stephan V Bechtolsheim wrote: > What's the best utility to use to test an IDE drive? I don't care > about the info that is stored on the IDE drive. I just want to run a > program and get an answer along the lines of "keep" or "throw away". If SMART has been enabled, then you might find some indications in the information it's gathered about the drive's operation using smartctl. The man page attempts to explain a bit about what's going on there, and this paper from Google has a lot of interesting things to say abouf SMART and drive failure prediction: http://labs.google.com/papers/disk_failures.pdf Unfortunately, the bottom line is that they found that over half of all failures had no visible indication in the SMART data; still, the flip side is that about half the time there may be clues. -- Faced with the choice between changing one's mind and proving there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the proof. -- JKG From svbechtolsheim at yahoo.com Sun Sep 2 09:41:44 2007 From: svbechtolsheim at yahoo.com (Stephan V Bechtolsheim) Date: Sun Sep 2 10:42:41 2007 Subject: [LUNI] Testing IDE drives Message-ID: <22438.74324.qm@web51610.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Thanks for the info on SMART. I know this is a source of information that I need to explore more. At this point I am little more interested in a setup where I would take a suspicious drive and have some utility test "the heck out of it" and tell me (after a few hours of pounding on it - or earlier if there are too many errors) whether the drive is OK or not. The drive would not be mounted and deleting the information on the drive would be acceptable. Thank you. StvB ----- Original Message ---- From: Martin Maney To: Linux Users Of Northern Illinois - Technical Discussion Sent: Sunday, September 2, 2007 9:18:43 AM Subject: Re: [LUNI] Testing IDE drives > If SMART has been enabled, then you might find some indications in the ..... From david at midrange.com Sun Sep 2 16:17:37 2007 From: david at midrange.com (David Gibbs) Date: Sun Sep 2 15:08:18 2007 Subject: [LUNI] Re: Testing IDE drives In-Reply-To: <20070902141843.GA10647@furrr.two14.net> References: <411597.57974.qm@web51611.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <20070902141843.GA10647@furrr.two14.net> Message-ID: Martin Maney wrote: > Unfortunately, the bottom line is that they found that over half of all > failures had no visible indication in the SMART data; still, the flip > side is that about half the time there may be clues. I've had the same feelings about SMART for quite a while ... I've *NEVER* had SMART predict a true drive failure ... and, when SMART does report a impending failure, normal diagnostics (even the manufacturers) report no problems. david From ken at stox.org Sun Sep 2 16:37:16 2007 From: ken at stox.org (Kenneth P. Stox) Date: Sun Sep 2 15:37:24 2007 Subject: [LUNI] Testing IDE drives In-Reply-To: <22438.74324.qm@web51610.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <22438.74324.qm@web51610.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1188765436.7033.22.camel@stox.dyndns.org> Install smartctl on your box, it offers extended tests using SMART. http://smartmontools.sourceforge.net/ From maney at two14.net Sun Sep 2 20:05:17 2007 From: maney at two14.net (Martin Maney) Date: Sun Sep 2 19:05:25 2007 Subject: [LUNI] Re: Testing IDE drives In-Reply-To: References: <411597.57974.qm@web51611.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <20070902141843.GA10647@furrr.two14.net> Message-ID: <20070903000517.GB10647@furrr.two14.net> On Sun, Sep 02, 2007 at 03:17:37PM -0500, David Gibbs wrote: > I've had the same feelings about SMART for quite a while ... I've > *NEVER* had SMART predict a true drive failure ... and, when SMART does > report a impending failure, normal diagnostics (even the manufacturers) > report no problems. Yeah, I think it's safe to say that many drives give *no* advance notice - they just up and quit. That certainly describes all the drive failures I've had personal dealings with. And that should really have been my point. You can look at what SMART reports, you can run this test or that test, and in the end all you can really say is that the drive was (or wasn't, but that's the simple case) working when the last test completed. Tomorrow it could be belly up. If that makes you feel kind of stupid to be keeping anything you care even a little bit about on any single drive without a known working backup in place... welcome to the club. -- The dualist evades the frame problem - but only because dualism draws the veil of mystery and obfuscation over all the tough how-questions -- Daniel C. Dennett From kgarner at kgarner.com Mon Sep 3 09:37:04 2007 From: kgarner at kgarner.com (Keith T. Garner) Date: Mon Sep 3 09:01:43 2007 Subject: [LUNI] Re: Testing IDE drives In-Reply-To: References: <411597.57974.qm@web51611.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <20070902141843.GA10647@furrr.two14.net> Message-ID: <46DC0E00.7070107@kgarner.com> David Gibbs wrote: > Martin Maney wrote: >> Unfortunately, the bottom line is that they found that over half of all >> failures had no visible indication in the SMART data; still, the flip >> side is that about half the time there may be clues. > > I've had the same feelings about SMART for quite a while ... I've > *NEVER* had SMART predict a true drive failure ... and, when SMART does > report a impending failure, normal diagnostics (even the manufacturers) > report no problems. Surprisingly, SMART actually did work for me once. My main server box at home started reporting "the drive will die within 24 hours" so I stayed up that night and transfered stuff over, and just as I finishing the transfer, it totally gave up the ghost. So its not completely worthless. :) Of course, you need to be running a properly configured smartd... Keith -- Keith T. Garner kgarner@kgarner.com "Make no little plans; they have no magic to stir men's blood." - Daniel H. Burnham From svbechtolsheim at yahoo.com Mon Sep 3 09:03:33 2007 From: svbechtolsheim at yahoo.com (Stephan V Bechtolsheim) Date: Mon Sep 3 10:10:20 2007 Subject: [LUNI] Re: Testing IDE drives Message-ID: <753730.20881.qm@web51601.mail.re2.yahoo.com> I think the general consensus is that there are certain type of failures of disk drives that will show up in the SMART generated log (in that the drive announces "I am about to die ....") and others that won't. And what is the conclusion? - There is just no way of avoiding backups. - If SMART indicates that the drive is going do die fairly soon, then one at least has some warning (better than none). What one does with the warning (assume failures show up one morning starting at 1AM and one is alerted / paged), is a different story: replace the drive right away, or wait till one comes to the office (at 9AM) or whatever .... StvB > Surprisingly, SMART actually did work for me once. My main server box at home From david at midrange.com Mon Sep 3 17:17:13 2007 From: david at midrange.com (David Gibbs) Date: Mon Sep 3 16:16:46 2007 Subject: [LUNI] Re: Testing IDE drives In-Reply-To: <46DC0E00.7070107@kgarner.com> References: <411597.57974.qm@web51611.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <20070902141843.GA10647@furrr.two14.net> <46DC0E00.7070107@kgarner.com> Message-ID: Keith T. Garner wrote: > Surprisingly, SMART actually did work for me once. My main server box at home > started reporting "the drive will die within 24 hours" so I stayed up that > night and transfered stuff over, and just as I finishing the transfer, it > totally gave up the ghost. So its not completely worthless. :) I don't rely on SMART ... I don't trust it. More often than not, my ears* have told me a drive is failing. This is why I backup my critical data to a tarball on a USB drive every night ... and then, on my critical system, I dump the tarball to a DDS4 tape. * For some reason, I've always been sensitive to failing mechanical computer hardware. About 25 years ago, when I was in my 2nd full time job (working for a consulting company on IBM S/36), I went into the clients computer room (a glorified filing closet) and heard a faint whine coming from the area of the S/36's drive bays (fwiw: The drives were 200mb with 6 24" diameter platters). I told the clients MIS manager, who went in but didn't hear anything. He told me to call IBM if I really thought there was a problem. I called our IBM CE (we were on a first name basis, for various reasons). He was in the area, so he would swing by just to check. He came by, didn't hear anything either, but checked the error logs, and found the drive was logging errors. Suffice it to say, we were able to get a full backup and replace the drive. Our downtime was about 24 hours. Had the drive failed, we would have been down much longer (response would have been the same, but lost data would have had to bev rekeyed). Please keep in mind this was before RAID was feasible. So ends this trip down memory lane. :) david From chris at susi.net Mon Sep 3 20:07:56 2007 From: chris at susi.net (Christopher S. Susi) Date: Mon Sep 3 19:13:43 2007 Subject: [LUNI] Open Source VPN In-Reply-To: References: <411597.57974.qm@web51611.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <20070902141843.GA10647@furrr.two14.net> <46DC0E00.7070107@kgarner.com> Message-ID: <367901c7ee87$abc6b2f0$035418d0$@net> I'm looking for an open source VPN solution? I don't wish to change my existing wireless/internet setup but to be able to configure that to route inbound IP traffic for required ports to a server on my network to act as a VPN gateway on my local network. I'd want both Windows & Linux clients. Is OpenVPN the way to go? From sfaci at cs.uic.edu Mon Sep 3 20:52:23 2007 From: sfaci at cs.uic.edu (Samir Faci) Date: Mon Sep 3 19:52:25 2007 Subject: [LUNI] Open Source VPN In-Reply-To: <367901c7ee87$abc6b2f0$035418d0$@net> References: <411597.57974.qm@web51611.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <20070902141843.GA10647@furrr.two14.net> <46DC0E00.7070107@kgarner.com> <367901c7ee87$abc6b2f0$035418d0$@net> Message-ID: <9db93b0e0709031752x70df8be1k1daf87b86c52f909@mail.gmail.com> That should work. You could use just basic port forwarding, and have the openvpn server to route traffic to the local lan if need be. -- Samir On 9/3/07, Christopher S. Susi wrote: > I'm looking for an open source VPN solution? > > I don't wish to change my existing wireless/internet setup but to be able to configure that to route inbound IP traffic for required ports to a server on my network to act as a VPN gateway on my local network. I'd want both Windows & Linux clients. > > Is OpenVPN the way to go? > > > -- > Linux Users Of Northern Illinois - Technical Discussion > http://luni.org/mailman/listinfo/luni > From trev at advanced-reality.com Mon Sep 3 22:49:08 2007 From: trev at advanced-reality.com (Trev Peterson) Date: Mon Sep 3 22:19:42 2007 Subject: [LUNI] Open Source VPN In-Reply-To: <367901c7ee87$abc6b2f0$035418d0$@net> References: <411597.57974.qm@web51611.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <20070902141843.GA10647@furrr.two14.net> <46DC0E00.7070107@kgarner.com> <367901c7ee87$abc6b2f0$035418d0$@net> Message-ID: <1188874149.6421.9.camel@aegir.advanced-reality.com> I've had great success with OpenVPN on MacOS, Windows and Linux. Definitely recommended. Trev On Mon, 2007-09-03 at 19:07 -0500, Christopher S. Susi wrote: > I'm looking for an open source VPN solution? > > I don't wish to change my existing wireless/internet setup but to be able to configure that to route inbound IP traffic for required ports to a server on my network to act as a VPN gateway on my local network. I'd want both Windows & Linux clients. > > Is OpenVPN the way to go? > > -- Trev Peterson Advanced Reality Email: trev@advanced-reality.com Phone: +1 847 406 9018 From kgarner at kgarner.com Tue Sep 4 09:51:51 2007 From: kgarner at kgarner.com (Keith T. Garner) Date: Tue Sep 4 08:51:50 2007 Subject: [LUNI] Re: Testing IDE drives In-Reply-To: References: <411597.57974.qm@web51611.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <20070902141843.GA10647@furrr.two14.net> <46DC0E00.7070107@kgarner.com> Message-ID: <46DD62F7.7040908@kgarner.com> On 9/3/07 4:17 PM, David Gibbs wrote: > Keith T. Garner wrote: >> Surprisingly, SMART actually did work for me once. My main server box at home >> started reporting "the drive will die within 24 hours" so I stayed up that >> night and transfered stuff over, and just as I finishing the transfer, it >> totally gave up the ghost. So its not completely worthless. :) > > I don't rely on SMART ... I don't trust it. More often than not, my > ears* have told me a drive is failing. This is why I backup my critical > data to a tarball on a USB drive every night ... and then, on my > critical system, I dump the tarball to a DDS4 tape. I didn't mean to imply I don't do backups, I just didn't feel like completely reinstalling, so I didn't have to. 5 times a week amanda tosses everything important onto DLT for me. Keith -- Keith T. Garner kgarner@kgarner.com "Make no little plans; they have no magic to stir men's blood." - Daniel H. Burnham From bil at jeschke.homelinux.net Sun Sep 2 14:17:53 2007 From: bil at jeschke.homelinux.net (bil) Date: Tue Sep 4 09:26:52 2007 Subject: [LUNI] Testing IDE drives In-Reply-To: <22438.74324.qm@web51610.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <22438.74324.qm@web51610.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200709021317.53255.bil.jeschke@gmail.com> On Sunday 02 September 2007 10:41:44 am Stephan V Bechtolsheim wrote: > Thanks for the info on SMART. I know this is a source of information that I > need to explore more. > > At this point I am little more interested in a setup where I would take a > suspicious drive and have some utility test "the heck out of it" and tell > me (after a few hours of pounding on it - or earlier if there are too many > errors) whether the drive is OK or not. The drive would not be mounted and > deleting the information on the drive would be acceptable. > > Thank you. > > StvB > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Martin Maney > To: Linux Users Of Northern Illinois - Technical Discussion > Sent: Sunday, September 2, 2007 9:18:43 AM > Subject: Re: [LUNI] Testing IDE drives > > > If SMART has been enabled, then you might find some indications in the > > ..... Drive manufactures have some tools for their drives. Here is a link with links to most of the common models. http://www.tacktech.com/display.cfm?ttid=287 From timborn at bell-labs.com Sat Sep 1 12:34:45 2007 From: timborn at bell-labs.com (Tim Born) Date: Tue Sep 4 09:27:04 2007 Subject: [LUNI] Testing IDE drives In-Reply-To: <411597.57974.qm@web51611.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <411597.57974.qm@web51611.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46D994A5.8050204@bell-labs.com> Stephan V Bechtolsheim wrote: >What's the best utility to use to test an IDE drive? I don't care about the info that is stored on the IDE drive. I just want to run a program and >get an answer along the lines of "keep" or "throw away". > >"badblocks" looks OK to me for that purpose - any other suggestions? > >If using badblocks is it worth to first do a "read only scan" before going to mode where blocks are written out to disk and then read back in? >The "read in all the blocks mode" seems to be much faster, but if that skips over more than 20% of the errors that would be discovered with >"write and read", then I am not interested. > >Thanks. > >StvB > smartmontools http://sourceforge.net/projects/smartmontools/ It provides access to the internal disk diagnostics. When my disks are *thinking* of failing and report it through smartmon, I've never had a vendor reject a warranty replacement before the actual failure by including a copy of the smartmon report. best, -tim -- Tim Born Alcatel-Lucent Ventures (ALV) timborn@alcatel-lucent.com +1 630/979-3118 -- "Not a single open-source software program has ever been sued for patent infringement, much less be found to infringe, while proprietary software, like Windows, is sued and found guilty of patent infringement quite frequently." -Dan Ravicher, author of the OSRM study and the executive director of the Public Patent Foundation -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature Size: 10704 bytes Desc: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature Url : http://luni.org/pipermail/luni/attachments/20070901/94f16c61/smime.bin From m.mccune at comcast.net Wed Sep 5 10:46:23 2007 From: m.mccune at comcast.net (Mike McCune) Date: Wed Sep 5 09:53:19 2007 Subject: [LUNI] ANN: WCLUG will meet at 7pm, Thursday September 5 at Goose Island. Message-ID: <46DEC13F.1060206@comcast.net> WCLUG is meeting at Goose Island (1800 Clybourn St., Chicago) this month to discuss a new meeting place http://www.gooseisland.com . State Restaurant was closed the last two meetings, so we need to find a new meeting place. I have had some suggestions already and more are welcome: Goose Island - Advantages - Free WiFI, plenty of parking, food and BEER. Disadvantages - The management doesn't seem to enthusiastic about having another group meet there. Pick A Cup Coffee, 1813 Dempster St., Evanston. http://www.pickacup.com. Advantages - Free WiFi, Lots of space, street parking. Disadvantages - Not close to major highways. Location is in suburbs. Red Lion, 2446 N Lincoln Ave, Chicago. Advantages http://redlionchicago.com - Has meeting room upstairs. Near Fullerton EL stop. Good food and atmosphere. Disadvantages - No WiFi, No free parking. Send any more suggestions to mjmccune at sbcglobal dot net -- Linux Users Of Northern Illinois - Announcements Mailing List http://luni.org/mailman/listinfo/luni-announce From weigell1 at comcast.net Wed Sep 5 19:22:45 2007 From: weigell1 at comcast.net (weigell1@comcast.net) Date: Wed Sep 5 13:28:12 2007 Subject: [LUNI] ANN: WCLUG will meet at 7pm, Thursday September 5 at Goose Island. Message-ID: <090520071822.22073.46DEF3F50005A342000056392205889116CE04040A09070A99@comcast.net> Mike, Has ant thought been given to meeting in the near western Suburbs, e.g. Oak Park? Larry Weigel -- "The only real valuable thing is intuition." - A. Einstein -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: Mike McCune > WCLUG is meeting at Goose Island (1800 Clybourn St., Chicago) this month > to discuss a new meeting place http://www.gooseisland.com . State > Restaurant was closed the last two meetings, so we need to find a new > meeting place. I have had some suggestions already and more are welcome: > > Goose Island - Advantages - Free WiFI, plenty of parking, food and BEER. > Disadvantages - The management doesn't seem to enthusiastic about having > another group meet there. > > Pick A Cup Coffee, 1813 Dempster St., Evanston. http://www.pickacup.com. > Advantages - Free WiFi, Lots of space, street parking. Disadvantages - > Not close to major highways. Location is in suburbs. > > Red Lion, 2446 N Lincoln Ave, Chicago. Advantages > http://redlionchicago.com - Has meeting room upstairs. Near Fullerton EL > stop. Good food and atmosphere. Disadvantages - No WiFi, No free parking. > > Send any more suggestions to mjmccune at sbcglobal dot net > -- > Linux Users Of Northern Illinois - Announcements Mailing List > http://luni.org/mailman/listinfo/luni-announce > -- > Linux Users Of Northern Illinois - Technical Discussion > http://luni.org/mailman/listinfo/luni From maney at two14.net Sat Sep 8 15:49:56 2007 From: maney at two14.net (Martin Maney) Date: Sat Sep 8 15:09:32 2007 Subject: [LUNI] in search of filesystem wisdom Message-ID: <20070908194956.GF25320@furrr.two14.net> So I'm doing some work on a FreeBSD server, and I get to noticing that when this goes live it will have some directories with tens of thousands (guessing maybe 50K... for now) files in it. Now, this tickled memories of days when the best practice was to split collections of hundreds of files up using something like ../first-letter/second-letter/lots_of_files_here scheme to avoid performance issues. What's the current thinking about this sort of thing in a FreeBSD context? What if there were going to be 500K files? Thanks! -- There is a germ of religion in human nature so strong that whenever an order of men can persuade the people by flattery or terror that they have salvation at their disposal,there can be no end to fraud, violence, and usurpation. -- John Adams From ken at stox.org Sat Sep 8 16:57:59 2007 From: ken at stox.org (Kenneth P. Stox) Date: Sat Sep 8 15:58:13 2007 Subject: [LUNI] in search of filesystem wisdom In-Reply-To: <20070908194956.GF25320@furrr.two14.net> References: <20070908194956.GF25320@furrr.two14.net> Message-ID: <1189285079.17168.85.camel@stox.dyndns.org> On Sat, 2007-09-08 at 14:49 -0500, Martin Maney wrote: > So I'm doing some work on a FreeBSD server, and I get to noticing that > when this goes live it will have some directories with tens of > thousands (guessing maybe 50K... for now) files in it. Now, this > tickled memories of days when the best practice was to split > collections of hundreds of files up using something like > ../first-letter/second-letter/lots_of_files_here scheme to avoid > performance issues. What's the current thinking about this sort of > thing in a FreeBSD context? What if there were going to be 500K files? UFS2 does not have on disk indexing, nor does it use B+trees for directories. ZFS might be an answer, but it is not yet production ready. Currently, you would be better off with XFS or Reiser on a Linux machine if you want to cram a lot of files into a directory. For the mean time, the old work-around, ./first-letter/second-letter/lots_of_files_here would be your best approach. Also, last I looked, although some filesystems can handle it, many shell scripts and some tools will break when used in/on directories with huge numbers of files. Keeping file counts below 1000/directory would be in your best interests anyway. From maney at two14.net Sat Sep 8 18:38:17 2007 From: maney at two14.net (Martin Maney) Date: Sat Sep 8 17:38:25 2007 Subject: [LUNI] in search of filesystem wisdom In-Reply-To: <1189285079.17168.85.camel@stox.dyndns.org> References: <20070908194956.GF25320@furrr.two14.net> <1189285079.17168.85.camel@stox.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <20070908223817.GH25320@furrr.two14.net> On Sat, Sep 08, 2007 at 03:57:59PM -0500, Kenneth P. Stox wrote: > UFS2 does not have on disk indexing, nor does it use B+trees for Thanks, I've been having a hard time finding a simple, straightforward statement like this online. I have come across plenty of sotries about the hassles of having so many files in one place, but mostly they're about the shell and tools' limits. Did find one that was a little scary (both relevant and pretty recent): http://www.nabble.com/Slow-locking-UFS-VFS-in-6.1--t2224669.html > Currently, you would be better off with XFS or Reiser on a Linux machine Interesting - I knew XFS was s'posed to be mighty good for working with huge files, don't hear so much about it being good for huge numbers of [not so huge] ones. > the old work-around, ./first-letter/second-letter/lots_of_files_here > would be your best approach. > > Also, last I looked, although some filesystems can handle it, many shell > scripts and some tools will break when used in/on directories with huge > numbers of files. Keeping file counts below 1000/directory would be in > your best interests anyway. As I said, if I were starting from scratch, I'd have done it differently. :-/ The shell/tool limits really aren't a big issue - this is one of those cases where the now-departed developer figured there was no point in stuffing the images into the database with the metadata when he had a nice filesystem sitting there. Since this also lets them be directly accessed by a high-performance web server, that's a perfectly reasonable choice here. But he clearly wasn't thinking about scaling, alas. Guess we'll have to invest in some re-engineering. This would have been so much easier if it had been done right at first. -- If God did not exist, it would be necessary for us to invent Him. --Voltaire ...over and over again. -- the empirical evidence From zfhealy at sbcglobal.net Sat Sep 8 18:17:14 2007 From: zfhealy at sbcglobal.net (zfh) Date: Sat Sep 8 19:24:03 2007 Subject: [LUNI] MAC address spoofing Message-ID: <338604.59649.qm@web83205.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I have been playing with IP address spoofing on Scientific Linux (a distribution similar to Red Hat Enterprise). I can use ifconfig to bring the interface down and change the mac address. (I was using a MAC address from another system on my network, which I brought up to see the MAC address and then shut down before trying the spoofing.) When I bring the interface back up, you would think it would grab a different IP address from the network DHCP. Instead, it either keeps the old IP address (which doesn't work), or it doesn't get an IP address at all. When I restart, the real MAC address comes back and all works fine. Am I missing something? From ramin-list at badapple.net Sun Sep 9 01:29:48 2007 From: ramin-list at badapple.net (Ramin K) Date: Sun Sep 9 02:55:46 2007 Subject: [LUNI] in search of filesystem wisdom In-Reply-To: <20070908223817.GH25320@furrr.two14.net> References: <20070908194956.GF25320@furrr.two14.net> <1189285079.17168.85.camel@stox.dyndns.org> <20070908223817.GH25320@furrr.two14.net> Message-ID: <46E3A0EC.4090901@badapple.net> Martin Maney wrote: >> the old work-around, ./first-letter/second-letter/lots_of_files_here >> would be your best approach. >> >> Also, last I looked, although some filesystems can handle it, many shell >> scripts and some tools will break when used in/on directories with huge >> numbers of files. Keeping file counts below 1000/directory would be in >> your best interests anyway. > > As I said, if I were starting from scratch, I'd have done it > differently. :-/ The shell/tool limits really aren't a big issue - > this is one of those cases where the now-departed developer figured > there was no point in stuffing the images into the database with the > metadata when he had a nice filesystem sitting there. Since this also > lets them be directly accessed by a high-performance web server, that's > a perfectly reasonable choice here. But he clearly wasn't thinking > about scaling, alas. > > Guess we'll have to invest in some re-engineering. This would have > been so much easier if it had been done right at first. > I built the backend for jumpcut.com which does online video editing. Jumpcut does a md5 hash the uploaded original media and uses that as the basis of a 32 bit hash that we break out like this: /12/3456/[7-32]/ We also get to use that to point to metadata in the db and avoid auto increment issues if we ever partition. We're a bit over 2 mil original files with roughly 10 mil in actual files with thumbnails, edit sizes, etc. The media storage is a bit over 11 TB. We're mounting storage over NFS with a Netapp for a dozen or so front end servers. We're starting to see some issues, but thumbnail caching would solve most of that or more cache and CPU on the NFS head. I know the fellows at Flickr and they are doing roughly the same thing only on a much larger scale however not as a single file system or directory structure. They do storage silos and use a db to rewrite URL's on the fly to point to media IIRC. In your case having a few dedicated image serving boxes running your favorite multi threaded web server with a fair amount of RAM separated from the application servers is probably the simple and cheap fix if you're looking at expanding your farm. 500k files shouldn't stress a system especially if you've tossed a bit of hardware at it or your OS has the room to cache most of the images. You can even keep the files on your current front end boxes to act as origin for Squid in front if it. I'm also no fan of image serving out of a db. It would be pretty useless at the scale I'm working at currently, but for small sites it can be easy to implement and manage. I'd could be convinced to do it with 50k images, but would probably prefer a file system at 500k if the images were of any size. Ramin From kgarner at kgarner.com Sun Sep 9 10:32:00 2007 From: kgarner at kgarner.com (Keith T. Garner) Date: Sun Sep 9 09:31:52 2007 Subject: [LUNI] MAC address spoofing In-Reply-To: <338604.59649.qm@web83205.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <338604.59649.qm@web83205.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46E403E0.9010002@kgarner.com> On 9/8/07 7:17 PM, zfh wrote: > I have been playing with IP address spoofing on > Scientific Linux (a distribution similar to Red Hat > Enterprise). I can use ifconfig to bring the > interface down and change the mac address. (I was > using a MAC address from another system on my network, > which I brought up to see the MAC address and then > shut down before trying the spoofing.) When I bring > the interface back up, you would think it would grab a > different IP address from the network DHCP. Instead, > it either keeps the old IP address (which doesn't > work), or it doesn't get an IP address at all. When I > restart, the real MAC address comes back and all works > fine. Am I missing something? What ISP are you working with? -- Keith T. Garner kgarner@kgarner.com "Make no little plans; they have no magic to stir men's blood." - Daniel H. Burnham From zfhealy at sbcglobal.net Sun Sep 9 11:04:26 2007 From: zfhealy at sbcglobal.net (zfh) Date: Sun Sep 9 12:04:35 2007 Subject: [LUNI] MAC address spoofing In-Reply-To: <46E403E0.9010002@kgarner.com> Message-ID: <601701.97294.qm@web83215.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- "Keith T. Garner" wrote: > On 9/8/07 7:17 PM, zfh wrote: > > I have been playing with IP address spoofing on > > Scientific Linux (a distribution similar to Red > Hat > > Enterprise). I can use ifconfig to bring the > > interface down and change the mac address. (I was > > using a MAC address from another system on my > network, > > which I brought up to see the MAC address and then > > shut down before trying the spoofing.) When I > bring > > the interface back up, you would think it would > grab a > > different IP address from the network DHCP. > Instead, > > it either keeps the old IP address (which doesn't > > work), or it doesn't get an IP address at all. > When I > > restart, the real MAC address comes back and all > works > > fine. Am I missing something? > > What ISP are you working with? > This is on my own internal network. I have a Debian sarge box that provides DHCP services to my internal network and acts as a bridge to my DSL. From sobolak at gmail.com Sun Sep 9 15:02:03 2007 From: sobolak at gmail.com (Brian Sobolak) Date: Sun Sep 9 14:02:10 2007 Subject: [LUNI] in search of filesystem wisdom In-Reply-To: <20070908223817.GH25320@furrr.two14.net> References: <20070908194956.GF25320@furrr.two14.net> <1189285079.17168.85.camel@stox.dyndns.org> <20070908223817.GH25320@furrr.two14.net> Message-ID: On 9/8/07, Martin Maney wrote: > On Sat, Sep 08, 2007 at 03:57:59PM -0500, Kenneth P. Stox wrote: > > UFS2 does not have on disk indexing, nor does it use B+trees for > > Thanks, I've been having a hard time finding a simple, straightforward > statement like this online. I have come across plenty of sotries about > the hassles of having so many files in one place, but mostly they're > about the shell and tools' limits. Did find one that was a little > scary (both relevant and pretty recent): > A huge amount of the FreeBSD documentation is done through the mailing lists. In my experience, if you send a question to questions@freebsd.org you get quite well-reasoned responses. There are even special lists for the filesystem on FreeBSD: http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-fs/ brian -- Brian Sobolak http://www.planetshwoop.com/ From maney at two14.net Sun Sep 9 19:57:42 2007 From: maney at two14.net (Martin Maney) Date: Sun Sep 9 18:57:51 2007 Subject: [LUNI] in search of filesystem wisdom In-Reply-To: References: <20070908194956.GF25320@furrr.two14.net> <1189285079.17168.85.camel@stox.dyndns.org> <20070908223817.GH25320@furrr.two14.net> Message-ID: <20070909235742.GB27902@furrr.two14.net> On Sun, Sep 09, 2007 at 02:02:03PM -0500, Brian Sobolak wrote: > A huge amount of the FreeBSD documentation is done through the mailing > lists. In my experience, if you send a question to > questions@freebsd.org you get quite well-reasoned responses. There I'm afraid that doesn't sound like an advantage to me, but then I tend to prefer a written tradition to an oral one. :-/ -- I'm not proud. We really haven't done everything we could to protect our customers ... Our products just aren't engineered for security. -- Brian Valentine, Microsoft Senior VP in charge of the Windows development team From me at heyjay.com Sun Sep 9 21:24:45 2007 From: me at heyjay.com (Jay Strauss) Date: Sun Sep 9 20:24:51 2007 Subject: [LUNI] Running 2 networks on same physical wire Message-ID: Hi, I need to have 2 computers sitting physically side to side to be on different networks. I only have a single RJ-45 outlet. The whole setup looks like: |-Router 1- |- Network 1 ISP--switch-| --RJ45 outlet--switch-| |-Router 2- |- Network 2 The space between the routers and the RJ45 outlet is on purpose, because I don't know what to put in there. The RJ45 outlet is upstairs, and the routers are in my basement. I can NOT simply move the routers upstairs because there are numerous computers hanging off of the routers in the basement. I'm not sure if what I want to do is possible or what equipment I need to get. Any help/suggestions would be most appreciated. Thanks Jay From dhorton at speakeasy.net Sun Sep 9 21:49:37 2007 From: dhorton at speakeasy.net (David Horton) Date: Sun Sep 9 20:56:24 2007 Subject: [LUNI] Running 2 networks on same physical wire In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46E4A2B1.8040302@speakeasy.net> Jay Strauss wrote: > Hi, > > I need to have 2 computers sitting physically side to side to be on > different networks. I only have a single RJ-45 outlet. The whole > setup looks like: > > |-Router 1- |- Network 1 > ISP--switch-| --RJ45 outlet--switch-| > |-Router 2- |- Network 2 > > The space between the routers and the RJ45 outlet is on > purpose, because I don't know what to put in there. > > The RJ45 outlet is upstairs, and the routers are in my basement. I > can NOT simply move the routers upstairs because there are numerous > computers hanging off of the routers in the basement. > > I'm not sure if what I want to do is possible or what equipment I need > to get. Any help/suggestions would be most appreciated. > > Thanks > Jay If you are using 10/100 Mbit speeds, there are only two of the four pairs of wires used. You can take the remaining two (the blue and the brown) and use them for the second network. You'll probably need to build yourself a custom cable or splitter. See this link for instructions on a DIY splitter http://www.makezine.com/blog/archive/2006/05/how_to_make_your_own_ethernet.html Hope that helps. Dave From sqrfolkdnc at comcast.net Sun Sep 9 23:16:23 2007 From: sqrfolkdnc at comcast.net (Carey Tyler Schug) Date: Sun Sep 9 22:21:48 2007 Subject: [LUNI] Running 2 networks on same physical wire In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46E4B707.8090709@comcast.net> I assume the RJ45 outlet upstairs is connected to an RJ45 outlet in the basement. I assume you actually have: computers on network 1--+ | computers on network 1--+ | +--router 1--+ +--computer on network 1 | | ISP router---+ >-RJ45-------RJ45-<<----+ | | +--router 2--+ +--computer on network 2 | computers on network 2--+ | computers on network 2--+ Where each set of vertical bars & pluses is one switch, and network 1 and network 2 are different subnets. Assuming all computers and routers are trusted and will not try to steal each others traffic, all you need is one more switch connected to each network in the basement and to the RJ45 port: computers on network 1--+ | computers on network 1--+ | +-----+ | | +--router 1--+ | +--computer on network 1 | | | ISP router---+ +-------->>-RJ45-------RJ45-<<----+ | | | +--router 2--+ | +--computer on network 2 | | +-----+ | computers on network 2--+ | computers on network 2--+ Each computer will ignore the other network (wrong subnet) and the switches at each end will direct traffic to only the computers who want it. If the switches are smart (you can log on to them from the network), each will be defined on one of the two networks, and you will not be able to log on from the other network, or at least not easily. I guess if you had routes on you could loop through the basement and come back to log on to the switch. The cleanest way, possible with Cisco and some other switches, would be to have ONE switch at each location (plus the one associated with the ISP router), and a "trunk" between them, using VLANs, then no computer will ever see any traffic from the other network. computers on network 1-+ | computers on network 1-+ | +--router 1-+ +-1--computer on network 1 | | | ISP router---+ +-T--------->>-RJ45-------RJ45-<<---T-+ | | | +--router 2-+ +-2--computer on network 2 | computers on network 2-+ | computers on network 2-+ where "--1-+" indicates that port is assigned to vlan #1, "--2-+" indicates that port is vlan #2, and "--T-+" indicates that port is a trunk. ==================== Of course, if these are standard 10/100 MB (not gigabit or 100T4) each network only uses 4 wires, so you could build a custom cable to connect each end of the RJ45 jacks to the two networks, and eliminate the switches at each end, and get bigger throughput also. You seemed to state only two computers upstairs, if you added more, you would still need switches upstairs. I see somebody else has suggested this... easier variations than making a male to two female adapter include (1) Take one ethernet cable, cut it in half. Remove a piece of the outer covering and select the appropriate 4 wires from each, thread them into the piece of cover and crimp them into an RJ45 plug. (2) get a duplex wall jack and rewire that as two outlets. I have seen these at some $1 stores (well, $1 for the mounting plate, and $1 each for jacks, total $4-6 with upstairs and downstairs depending on whether you can reuse the present jack). Jay Strauss wrote: > Hi, > > I need to have 2 computers sitting physically side to side to be on > different networks. I only have a single RJ-45 outlet. The whole > setup looks like: > > |-Router 1- |- Network 1 > ISP--switch-| --RJ45 outlet--switch-| > |-Router 2- |- Network 2 > > The space between the routers and the RJ45 outlet is on > purpose, because I don't know what to put in there. > > The RJ45 outlet is upstairs, and the routers are in my basement. I > can NOT simply move the routers upstairs because there are numerous > computers hanging off of the routers in the basement. > > I'm not sure if what I want to do is possible or what equipment I need > to get. Any help/suggestions would be most appreciated. > > Thanks > Jay > -- Carey Tyler Schug From sobolak at gmail.com Mon Sep 10 03:12:01 2007 From: sobolak at gmail.com (Brian Sobolak) Date: Mon Sep 10 02:12:05 2007 Subject: [LUNI] in search of filesystem wisdom In-Reply-To: <20070909235742.GB27902@furrr.two14.net> References: <20070908194956.GF25320@furrr.two14.net> <1189285079.17168.85.camel@stox.dyndns.org> <20070908223817.GH25320@furrr.two14.net> <20070909235742.GB27902@furrr.two14.net> Message-ID: On 9/9/07, Martin Maney wrote: > On Sun, Sep 09, 2007 at 02:02:03PM -0500, Brian Sobolak wrote: > > A huge amount of the FreeBSD documentation is done through the mailing > > lists. In my experience, if you send a question to > > questions@freebsd.org you get quite well-reasoned responses. There > > I'm afraid that doesn't sound like an advantage to me, but then I tend > to prefer a written tradition to an oral one. :-/ > Did you check the handbook? http://www.freebsd.org/handbook/ I found this page, which might be applicable: http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/configtuning-disk.html It also mentions the tunefs man page and has extensive detail about soft updates, which could be helpful in your situation. brian -- Brian Sobolak http://www.planetshwoop.com/ From we3 at sprynet.com Mon Sep 10 05:19:51 2007 From: we3 at sprynet.com (Walter) Date: Mon Sep 10 04:17:34 2007 Subject: [LUNI] MAC address spoofing In-Reply-To: <338604.59649.qm@web83205.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <338604.59649.qm@web83205.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1189415991.4789.19.camel@tina.gear.chicago.il.us> Well the dhcp client keeps a cache of the last ip address it was given for an interface. The idea being that when the system restarts it can ask for that same IP. dhclient, at least on my system, doesn't seem to keep track of the interfaces MAC address, just the interface name. Just to clarify was the old IP address supposed to work with the new MAC? I mean I have no idea why it wouldn't normally work, or why it didn't get a new address. A couple of things to try though: 1) Try getting your dhcp client to explicitly release the IP address. 2) Make sure there isn't any running dhcp client before bringing up your interface. 3) I did say a couple of things so this may be contradictory, but it's way to late, or early, you could delete the leases file. Hmm, now that I noticed it, it seems your using ifconfig to bring down your interface. You may want to use your distro's tool to bring it down, at least before you try my other suggestions. Debian uses ifup and ifdown. I think Redhat based systems do too. If your still having problems, find out which dhcp client your using. It might be helpful if you need to further troubleshoot. On Sat, 2007-09-08 at 17:17 -0700, zfh wrote: > I have been playing with IP address spoofing on > Scientific Linux (a distribution similar to Red Hat > Enterprise). I can use ifconfig to bring the > interface down and change the mac address. (I was > using a MAC address from another system on my network, > which I brought up to see the MAC address and then > shut down before trying the spoofing.) When I bring > the interface back up, you would think it would grab a > different IP address from the network DHCP. Instead, > it either keeps the old IP address (which doesn't > work), or it doesn't get an IP address at all. When I > restart, the real MAC address comes back and all works > fine. Am I missing something? -- Walter From maney at two14.net Mon Sep 10 09:58:36 2007 From: maney at two14.net (Martin Maney) Date: Mon Sep 10 08:58:44 2007 Subject: [LUNI] in search of filesystem wisdom In-Reply-To: References: <20070908194956.GF25320@furrr.two14.net> <1189285079.17168.85.camel@stox.dyndns.org> <20070908223817.GH25320@furrr.two14.net> <20070909235742.GB27902@furrr.two14.net> Message-ID: <20070910135836.GA29620@furrr.two14.net> On Mon, Sep 10, 2007 at 02:12:01AM -0500, Brian Sobolak wrote: > Did you check the handbook? > > http://www.freebsd.org/handbook/ I don't think so. I did wander around the freebsd site a bit, but to be honest I rarely expect good results from such manual searches at projects that have more than perhaps a dozen pages altogether. So.. > I found this page, which might be applicable: > > http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/configtuning-disk.html Nope, didn't see that - I don't recall that the handbook ever appeared in any of the attempts I made via Google. The first item is certainly of interest, though it's not clear that it addresses the linear search issue which is the traditional root cause of most performance issues with overlarge directories. However, the setting that would be desired seems to be the default, and in fact I'm hard pressed to imagine when you'd wish to limit directory caching - surely only under very special circumstances would that be remotely sane. > It also mentions the tunefs man page and has extensive detail about > soft updates, which could be helpful in your situation. I have to admit I'm baffled by the implication that turning soft updates on or off (which are you suggesting?) would make the slightest difference. Nor do I see anything in tunefs that seems relevant unless setting the "expected number of files per directory" would have some good effect on existing directories, uhm, somehow. I don't doubt that this information is out there somewhere, and thanks to everyone who's replied. But it's looking like I may be able to rework the sorry mess after all - good ol' hoof and mouth type solution. :-) -- Much of our country's counterterrorism security spending is not designed to protect us from the terrorists, but instead to protect our public officials from criticism when another attack occurs. -- Bruce Schneier From me at heyjay.com Mon Sep 10 11:06:15 2007 From: me at heyjay.com (Jay Strauss) Date: Mon Sep 10 10:06:25 2007 Subject: [LUNI] Running 2 networks on same physical wire In-Reply-To: <46E4A2B1.8040302@speakeasy.net> References: <46E4A2B1.8040302@speakeasy.net> Message-ID: > If you are using 10/100 Mbit speeds, there are only two of the four > pairs of wires used. You can take the remaining two (the blue and the > brown) and use them for the second network. You'll probably need to > build yourself a custom cable or splitter. See this link for > instructions on a DIY splitter > http://www.makezine.com/blog/archive/2006/05/how_to_make_your_own_ethernet.html > > Hope that helps. > > Dave Oh, that seems easy. I've even got all the stuff at home to do it. Thanks Jay From ericb at opensolaris.org Tue Sep 11 16:58:44 2007 From: ericb at opensolaris.org (Eric Boutilier) Date: Tue Sep 11 15:59:03 2007 Subject: [LUNI] ANN: Chicago OpenSolaris User Group Meeting Message-ID: We have tentative plans for an OpenSolaris User Group meeting next Tuesday (9/18), and I thought it'd be good to notify luni subscribers as well. It'll probably be an informal roundtable kind of thing at a restaurant or pub. Linda Kateley, Sun Midwest Solaris/OpenSolaris Specialist, will be there. What would people be interested in talking about? Some of the popular topics these days are zfs, dtrace, zones, installation, packaging/pkg mgmt, the "GNU-ification of Solaris" debate, installing the latest Community Edition distro (OpenSolaris build 72) on desktops... What else? Eric Boutilier OpenSolaris Sun Microsystems From fwp at deepthought.com Tue Sep 11 17:47:02 2007 From: fwp at deepthought.com (Frank Pittel) Date: Tue Sep 11 17:17:59 2007 Subject: [LUNI] ANN: Chicago OpenSolaris User Group Meeting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070911214702.GC4129@warlock.deepthought.com> How about adding smf to the agenda? On Tue, Sep 11, 2007 at 03:58:44PM -0500, Eric Boutilier wrote: > We have tentative plans for an OpenSolaris User Group meeting next Tuesday > (9/18), and I thought it'd be good to notify luni subscribers as well. It'll > probably be an informal roundtable kind of thing at a restaurant or pub. > Linda > Kateley, Sun Midwest Solaris/OpenSolaris Specialist, will be there. > > What would people be interested in talking about? Some of the popular topics > these days are zfs, dtrace, zones, installation, packaging/pkg mgmt, the > "GNU-ification of Solaris" debate, installing the latest Community Edition > distro (OpenSolaris build 72) on desktops... What else? > > Eric Boutilier > OpenSolaris > Sun Microsystems > > -- > Linux Users Of Northern Illinois - Technical Discussion > http://luni.org/mailman/listinfo/luni From zfhealy at sbcglobal.net Tue Sep 11 16:59:33 2007 From: zfhealy at sbcglobal.net (zfh) Date: Tue Sep 11 18:00:25 2007 Subject: [LUNI] MAC address spoofing In-Reply-To: <1189415991.4789.19.camel@tina.gear.chicago.il.us> Message-ID: <564329.41270.qm@web83214.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Walter wrote: > Well the dhcp client keeps a cache of the last ip > address it was given > for an interface. The idea being that when the > system restarts it can > ask for that same IP. dhclient, at least on my > system, doesn't seem to > keep track of the interfaces MAC address, just the > interface name. > > Just to clarify was the old IP address supposed to > work with the new > MAC? I mean I have no idea why it wouldn't normally > work, or why it > didn't get a new address. > > A couple of things to try though: > 1) Try getting your dhcp client to explicitly > release the IP address. > 2) Make sure there isn't any running dhcp client > before bringing up > your interface. > 3) I did say a couple of things so this may be > contradictory, but it's > way to late, or early, you could delete the leases > file. > > Hmm, now that I noticed it, it seems your using > ifconfig to bring down > your interface. You may want to use your distro's > tool to bring it down, > at least before you try my other suggestions. Debian > uses ifup and > ifdown. I think Redhat based systems do too. > > If your still having problems, find out which dhcp > client your using. It > might be helpful if you need to further > troubleshoot. > When I use the GUI to shut down and bring back up the interface, I get a message like "mac address is to as expected - Ignoring". I think the reason it isn't working is because the interface is not coming back up for this reason. I also tried the same thing on Debian Sarge with the same result. > > On Sat, 2007-09-08 at 17:17 -0700, zfh wrote: > > I have been playing with IP address spoofing on > > Scientific Linux (a distribution similar to Red > Hat > > Enterprise). I can use ifconfig to bring the > > interface down and change the mac address. (I was > > using a MAC address from another system on my > network, > > which I brought up to see the MAC address and then > > shut down before trying the spoofing.) When I > bring > > the interface back up, you would think it would > grab a > > different IP address from the network DHCP. > Instead, > > it either keeps the old IP address (which doesn't > > work), or it doesn't get an IP address at all. > When I > > restart, the real MAC address comes back and all > works > > fine. Am I missing something? > -- > Walter > > -- > Linux Users Of Northern Illinois - Technical > Discussion > http://luni.org/mailman/listinfo/luni > From ericb at opensolaris.org Wed Sep 12 22:02:09 2007 From: ericb at opensolaris.org (Eric Boutilier) Date: Wed Sep 12 21:02:23 2007 Subject: [LUNI] Re: ANN: Chicago OpenSolaris User Group Meeting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Sep 2007, Eric Boutilier wrote: > We have tentative plans for an OpenSolaris User Group meeting next Tuesday > (9/18), and I thought it'd be good to notify luni subscribers as well. It'll > probably be an informal roundtable kind of thing at a restaurant or pub. Linda > Kateley, Sun Midwest Solaris/OpenSolaris Specialist, will be there. > > What would people be interested in talking about? Some of the popular topics > these days are zfs, dtrace, zones, installation, packaging/pkg mgmt, the > "GNU-ification of Solaris" debate, installing the latest Community Edition > distro (OpenSolaris build 72) on desktops... What else? > > Eric Boutilier > OpenSolaris > Sun Microsystems > Copying this (below) to the luni list as well... Frank -- good idea to add SMF to the discussion topics, thanks. --------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 18:54:50 -0500 (CDT) From: Eric Boutilier To: ug-glug@opensolaris.org Bcc: Eric.Boutilier@Sun.COM Subject: Re: Chicago OpenSolaris User Group Meeting OK, we're up to five. Anyone else in? ... We should reserve a table, so I need a count. Along with Linda, Chip will be there too (Yes, the same Chip who wrote the DTrace series in Sys Admin Mag). And although I don't have any funding for food/drinks or anything like that, I could probably come up with a Sun-marketing tradeshow Do-dad or somesuch for everyone (SWAG). From sfaci at cs.uic.edu Mon Sep 17 22:01:07 2007 From: sfaci at cs.uic.edu (Samir Faci) Date: Mon Sep 17 21:01:17 2007 Subject: [LUNI] EFF/Install Fest Message-ID: <9db93b0e0709171901h7075e0cduc40c4339dfbae792@mail.gmail.com> A friend of mine who apparently is too lazy to sign up to the mailing list personally is wondering if anyone has a contact email for EFF (Electronic Frontier Foundation) in regards to flourish 2007. or some permutation of flourish, an FLOSS conference that will be occurring in April once more. If anyone has a contact email please email me offlist. I'll send out a more official announcement, but the UIC LUG is holding an install fest on October 6th. If anyone would like to present anything, please let me know. Always looking for speakers and we do need at least one sponsor to pickup the pizza tab. -- Samir Faci From trev at advanced-reality.com Thu Sep 20 15:07:43 2007 From: trev at advanced-reality.com (Trev Peterson) Date: Thu Sep 20 14:09:45 2007 Subject: [LUNI] Getting rid of some hardware Message-ID: <1190315263.18720.82.camel@aegir.advanced-reality.com> Hello, Cleaning out some stuff. It can be picked up in Highland Park at a time we arrange. Here is what I'm looking to give away: Sharp Zaurus SL-5000 (haven't used it in 1.5 years but it was working then) (may have an 802.11 cf card for it as well) 4 port Belking KVM w/ some cables (3 sets I believe) Channel Master 3x4 multiswitch (for sat TV) 2 CDrom drives 2 SFF (small form factor) PCs Pentium 2 generation w/ CD->IDE adapters (they make great linux firewalls), 1 has a PCI atheros card in it and the other has a noisey PSU, both have proc and memory 1 SmartUPS 700 (APC manageable UPS) not sure how the battery is I'd love to give this all away soon (first to show up gets pick of the litter and can take as much as they like). If you are interested please email ME (not the list). I will send email to everyone who emails me with interest updating them on what is there and what is gone as soon as it changes. After Monday it all goes to the recyclers. Thanks, -- Trev Peterson Advanced Reality Email: trev@advanced-reality.com Phone: +1 847 406 9018 From ccrandall77 at yahoo.com Thu Sep 20 17:41:03 2007 From: ccrandall77 at yahoo.com (Curt Crandall) Date: Thu Sep 20 18:41:37 2007 Subject: [LUNI] Time to get rid of the old to make way for the new Message-ID: <162075.70335.qm@web50501.mail.re2.yahoo.com> I have a ton of computer/gadget related items I'm selling. If anyone is interested, please contact me offline. Prices are negotiable. 1.) Apple Mac Mini Core Solo 1.5GHz, 512MB RAM, 60GB HDD, OS X 10.4 with remote and Apple bluetooth mouse (one-button). Just used it with my LCD TV for playing DVDs and using FrontRow and Dashboard. I "upgraded" to an AppleTV, so I no longer need it. Original disks and packaging (minus the UPC). Asking $400 2.) Brand new Apple iPod Nano 4GB, Red, Second Gen Only opened the package to get the UPC. Full warranty. Got it with my new laptop, but I already have 2 Nanos, a shuffle, and 2 touches. I think that's plenty of iPods. Asking $125 3.) Brand new HP Photosmart C4280 printer Still sealed, but we took the UPC. Got it free with my new laptop. Asking $50 4.) Apple Airport Express (802.11g) + Airbase (stand and long power cable) I upgraded to an Airport Extreme and already have another Airport Express. Original box and disks. Asking $50 5.) Sprint Treo 650 + Documents to Go Premium 10 + Hard Case + Timbuk2 case (blue) + car charger + dock + suction cup holder for car (has long flexible neck) + Treo to Sprint power adapter + Missing Sync (if you have a Mac) + extra stylus Great condition. I would still use it, but now that I have an iPod Touch and a small flip phone, I don't need it. Original box, manuals, etc. Asking $125 6.) Gefen DVI Detective for 32" Sharp Aquous (1366 x 768) Used it with my Mac Mini, but now that I have an Apple TV I don't need it. Asking $10 7.) Clie UX 50 + new battery + black pouch from The Pouch Inc. Works well except the memory stick slot isn't working properly. Asking $50 8.) Palm Tungsten T3 + 1GB SD card + original disks Some screen wear where the graffiti pad is when the screen is extended. Asking $75 9.) Monster Ultra 600 8' DVI - DVI cable All my stuff uses HDMI now, so I know longer need it. Asking $20 10.) ATO iSee 360 (Black) Turns your older iPod into a DVR with 3.5" screen (only works with 4th Gen iPod 20GB, 1st Gen Nano w/ adapter, 5th Gen iPod Video 30GB, and maybe a few other models). Opened, but never used. Ended up getting an Archos instead and now an iPod Touch. Asking $100 11.) Apple 3rd Gen iPod - 15GB + combo USB/Firewire cables. Meant for a Mac. It's a little beat up, battery is probably old, but it still works. Asking $50 I probably have more stuff, but I'll stop here. Questions? Just pop me an email. Thanks! Curt ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Tonight's top picks. What will you watch tonight? > Preview the hottest shows on Yahoo! TV. > http://tv.yahoo.com/ > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545433 From skie at dragonsvalley.com Thu Sep 20 19:53:36 2007 From: skie at dragonsvalley.com (Branko Kotur) Date: Thu Sep 20 19:45:48 2007 Subject: [LUNI] Quick question on how to pronounce something Message-ID: <200709201853.36322.skie@dragonsvalley.com> I was recently talking to someone about Xen (the virutalization software for Linux) and he had not heard of it. Well, I was thinking maybe I was pronouncing it wrong. I always thought it was pronounced "zen", but then, I've been wrong before. Enlighten me please. :) From craig at codestorm.org Thu Sep 20 21:56:53 2007 From: craig at codestorm.org (Craig Van Tassle) Date: Thu Sep 20 20:57:51 2007 Subject: [LUNI] Quick question on how to pronounce something In-Reply-To: <200709201853.36322.skie@dragonsvalley.com> References: <200709201853.36322.skie@dragonsvalley.com> Message-ID: <20070920205653.790d53d1@localhost> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Thu, 20 Sep 2007 18:53:36 -0500 Branko Kotur wrote: > I was recently talking to someone about Xen (the virutalization > software for Linux) and he had not heard of it. Well, I was thinking > maybe I was pronouncing it wrong. I always thought it was pronounced > "zen", but then, I've been wrong before. Enlighten me please. :) > That is how everyone I know pronounces xen. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFG8yTpv8bO71D0xskRAmURAJoCmu+dAN3z8d1EWPloorV2tR9BSACfWoQI AcTZho+/XZJRaXV3kdj2UIE= =dfS/ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From sfaci at cs.uic.edu Thu Sep 20 22:15:00 2007 From: sfaci at cs.uic.edu (Samir Faci) Date: Thu Sep 20 21:15:06 2007 Subject: [LUNI] Quick question on how to pronounce something In-Reply-To: <20070920205653.790d53d1@localhost> References: <200709201853.36322.skie@dragonsvalley.com> <20070920205653.790d53d1@localhost> Message-ID: <9db93b0e0709201915l430a6aafj15c5888d2f9b6d67@mail.gmail.com> Maybe it's just me, but I didn't get any content in Craig's email beside his signature. And yes, it is pronounced zen at every talk I went to on the topic. -- Samir On 9/20/07, Craig Van Tassle wrote: > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > On Thu, 20 Sep 2007 18:53:36 -0500 > Branko Kotur wrote: > > > I was recently talking to someone about Xen (the virutalization > > software for Linux) and he had not heard of it. Well, I was thinking > > maybe I was pronouncing it wrong. I always thought it was pronounced > > "zen", but then, I've been wrong before. Enlighten me please. :) > > > > > That is how everyone I know pronounces xen. > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v2.0.6 (GNU/Linux) > > iD8DBQFG8yTpv8bO71D0xskRAmURAJoCmu+dAN3z8d1EWPloorV2tR9BSACfWoQI > AcTZho+/XZJRaXV3kdj2UIE= > =dfS/ > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > -- > Linux Users Of Northern Illinois - Technical Discussion > http://luni.org/mailman/listinfo/luni > From craig at codestorm.org Thu Sep 20 22:37:16 2007 From: craig at codestorm.org (Craig Van Tassle) Date: Thu Sep 20 21:37:24 2007 Subject: [LUNI] Quick question on how to pronounce something In-Reply-To: <9db93b0e0709201915l430a6aafj15c5888d2f9b6d67@mail.gmail.com> References: <200709201853.36322.skie@dragonsvalley.com> <20070920205653.790d53d1@localhost> <9db93b0e0709201915l430a6aafj15c5888d2f9b6d67@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070920213716.7ef31fed@localhost> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Thu, 20 Sep 2007 21:15:00 -0500 "Samir Faci" wrote: > Maybe it's just me, but I didn't get any content in Craig's email > beside his signature. > > And yes, it is pronounced zen at every talk I went to on the topic. > > -- > Samir > > On 9/20/07, Craig Van Tassle wrote: > > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > > Hash: SHA1 > > > > On Thu, 20 Sep 2007 18:53:36 -0500 > > Branko Kotur wrote: > > > > > I was recently talking to someone about Xen (the virutalization > > > software for Linux) and he had not heard of it. Well, I was > > > thinking maybe I was pronouncing it wrong. I always thought it > > > was pronounced "zen", but then, I've been wrong before. > > > Enlighten me please. :) > > > > > > > > > That is how everyone I know pronounces xen. > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > > Version: GnuPG v2.0.6 (GNU/Linux) > > > > iD8DBQFG8yTpv8bO71D0xskRAmURAJoCmu+dAN3z8d1EWPloorV2tR9BSACfWoQI > > AcTZho+/XZJRaXV3kdj2UIE= > > =dfS/ > > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > > > -- > > Linux Users Of Northern Illinois - Technical Discussion > > http://luni.org/mailman/listinfo/luni > > !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! MY RESPONCE IS HERE! I actually bottom posted! That is why you didn't think you saw my reply. again here it is.. That is how everyone I know pronounces xen. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFG8y5fv8bO71D0xskRAhpNAKCOkdH1bX7jcK2ikjD9S9ab8ae8fQCfc6VR kj7/QpUcafBH1i2v3yFeI9A= =lRE4 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From sfaci at cs.uic.edu Thu Sep 20 22:48:25 2007 From: sfaci at cs.uic.edu (Samir Faci) Date: Thu Sep 20 21:48:33 2007 Subject: [LUNI] Quick question on how to pronounce something In-Reply-To: <20070920213716.7ef31fed@localhost> References: <200709201853.36322.skie@dragonsvalley.com> <20070920205653.790d53d1@localhost> <9db93b0e0709201915l430a6aafj15c5888d2f9b6d67@mail.gmail.com> <20070920213716.7ef31fed@localhost> Message-ID: <9db93b0e0709201948j277a95a0qbf2119478f7d88c4@mail.gmail.com> well, sawwwrryyyyyyy.... it was hidden by all the gpg gibberish :-P Anyhoo, 2 votes for "zen" -- Samir On 9/20/07, Craig Van Tassle wrote: > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > On Thu, 20 Sep 2007 21:15:00 -0500 > "Samir Faci" wrote: > > > Maybe it's just me, but I didn't get any content in Craig's email > > beside his signature. > > > > And yes, it is pronounced zen at every talk I went to on the topic. > > > > -- > > Samir > > > > On 9/20/07, Craig Van Tassle wrote: > > > > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > > > Hash: SHA1 > > > > > > On Thu, 20 Sep 2007 18:53:36 -0500 > > > Branko Kotur wrote: > > > > > > > I was recently talking to someone about Xen (the virutalization > > > > software for Linux) and he had not heard of it. Well, I was > > > > thinking maybe I was pronouncing it wrong. I always thought it > > > > was pronounced "zen", but then, I've been wrong before. > > > > Enlighten me please. :) > > > > > > > > > > > > > That is how everyone I know pronounces xen. > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > > > Version: GnuPG v2.0.6 (GNU/Linux) > > > > > > iD8DBQFG8yTpv8bO71D0xskRAmURAJoCmu+dAN3z8d1EWPloorV2tR9BSACfWoQI > > > AcTZho+/XZJRaXV3kdj2UIE= > > > =dfS/ > > > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > > > > > -- > > > Linux Users Of Northern Illinois - Technical Discussion > > > http://luni.org/mailman/listinfo/luni > > > > > !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! > MY RESPONCE IS HERE! > > I actually bottom posted! That is why you didn't think you saw my reply. > > again here it is.. That is how everyone I know pronounces xen. > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v2.0.6 (GNU/Linux) > > iD8DBQFG8y5fv8bO71D0xskRAhpNAKCOkdH1bX7jcK2ikjD9S9ab8ae8fQCfc6VR > kj7/QpUcafBH1i2v3yFeI9A= > =lRE4 > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > -- > Linux Users Of Northern Illinois - Technical Discussion > http://luni.org/mailman/listinfo/luni > From ken at stox.org Thu Sep 20 23:22:29 2007 From: ken at stox.org (Kenneth P. Stox) Date: Thu Sep 20 22:22:56 2007 Subject: [LUNI] Quick question on how to pronounce something In-Reply-To: <9db93b0e0709201948j277a95a0qbf2119478f7d88c4@mail.gmail.com> References: <200709201853.36322.skie@dragonsvalley.com> <20070920205653.790d53d1@localhost> <9db93b0e0709201915l430a6aafj15c5888d2f9b6d67@mail.gmail.com> <20070920213716.7ef31fed@localhost> <9db93b0e0709201948j277a95a0qbf2119478f7d88c4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1190344949.11446.85.camel@stox.dyndns.org> On Thu, 2007-09-20 at 21:48 -0500, Samir Faci wrote: > well, sawwwrryyyyyyy.... it was hidden by all the gpg gibberish :-P > > Anyhoo, 2 votes for "zen" Actually, the correct pronunciation is "icky icky ptang throckmorton." The 'e' is silent. ;-> From craig at codestorm.org Thu Sep 20 23:27:43 2007 From: craig at codestorm.org (Craig Van Tassle) Date: Thu Sep 20 22:27:56 2007 Subject: [LUNI] Quick question on how to pronounce something In-Reply-To: <1190344949.11446.85.camel@stox.dyndns.org> References: <200709201853.36322.skie@dragonsvalley.com> <20070920205653.790d53d1@localhost> <9db93b0e0709201915l430a6aafj15c5888d2f9b6d67@mail.gmail.com> <20070920213716.7ef31fed@localhost> <9db93b0e0709201948j277a95a0qbf2119478f7d88c4@mail.gmail.com> <1190344949.11446.85.camel@stox.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <20070920222743.6c2fadba@localhost> OMFG! LMFAO! ROTF! That is GREAT!!! On Thu, 20 Sep 2007 22:22:29 -0500 "Kenneth P. Stox" wrote: > On Thu, 2007-09-20 at 21:48 -0500, Samir Faci wrote: > > well, sawwwrryyyyyyy.... it was hidden by all the gpg gibberish :-P > > > > Anyhoo, 2 votes for "zen" > > Actually, the correct pronunciation is "icky icky ptang throckmorton." > The 'e' is silent. ;-> > From nixternal at ubuntu.com Thu Sep 20 23:52:02 2007 From: nixternal at ubuntu.com (Richard A. Johnson) Date: Thu Sep 20 22:52:18 2007 Subject: [LUNI] Quick question on how to pronounce something In-Reply-To: <9db93b0e0709201948j277a95a0qbf2119478f7d88c4@mail.gmail.com> References: <200709201853.36322.skie@dragonsvalley.com> <20070920213716.7ef31fed@localhost> <9db93b0e0709201948j277a95a0qbf2119478f7d88c4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200709202252.02112.nixternal@ubuntu.com> On Thursday 20 September 2007, Samir Faci wrote: | well, sawwwrryyyyyyy.... it was hidden by all the gpg gibberish :-P What GPG gibberish :) | Anyhoo, 2 votes for "zen" Say it how you feel like saying it. Make something up, I do, half the time people will just follow along. Plus, if you can make is sound cooler and give it more umph than "zen", do it, people will think highly of you :) -- Richard A. Johnson nixternal@ubuntu.com GPG Key: 0x2E2C0124 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part. Url : http://luni.org/pipermail/luni/attachments/20070920/bd97aa0e/attachment.bin From skie at dragonsvalley.com Fri Sep 21 00:51:52 2007 From: skie at dragonsvalley.com (Branko Kotur) Date: Thu Sep 20 23:52:33 2007 Subject: [LUNI] Quick question on how to pronounce something In-Reply-To: <200709202252.02112.nixternal@ubuntu.com> References: <200709201853.36322.skie@dragonsvalley.com> <9db93b0e0709201948j277a95a0qbf2119478f7d88c4@mail.gmail.com> <200709202252.02112.nixternal@ubuntu.com> Message-ID: <200709202351.52551.skie@dragonsvalley.com> Thanks for all the responses. On Thursday 20 September 2007 10:52:02 pm Richard A. Johnson wrote: > On Thursday 20 September 2007, Samir Faci wrote: > Say it how you feel like saying it. Make something up, I do, half the time > people will just follow along. Plus, if you can make is sound cooler and > give it more umph than "zen", do it, people will think highly of you :) For the longest time I always just said the letters S A T A when talking about SATA drives (usually online, I rarely talked to people in person about it). Then I was talking to someone and they kept saying "say-ta" and I had no clue what they were talking about. :o After that, I heard everyone saying it. It's because of that, that I wasn't sure about Xen. From sfaci at cs.uic.edu Fri Sep 21 01:41:58 2007 From: sfaci at cs.uic.edu (Samir Faci) Date: Fri Sep 21 00:42:02 2007 Subject: [LUNI] Quick question on how to pronounce something In-Reply-To: <200709202351.52551.skie@dragonsvalley.com> References: <200709201853.36322.skie@dragonsvalley.com> <9db93b0e0709201948j277a95a0qbf2119478f7d88c4@mail.gmail.com> <200709202252.02112.nixternal@ubuntu.com> <200709202351.52551.skie@dragonsvalley.com> Message-ID: <9db93b0e0709202241p28f8c3a4ma0c8688dd10893cf@mail.gmail.com> Yah, now let's talk about how to pronounce "Linux" 'cause some weird hippy, he said his name was... Richard.. Sta... something called it differently. I can't remember just how screwed up the prononciation was.. but wasn't quiet what I'm used to hearing. /me ducks. -- Samir On 9/20/07, Branko Kotur wrote: > > Thanks for all the responses. > > On Thursday 20 September 2007 10:52:02 pm Richard A. Johnson wrote: > > On Thursday 20 September 2007, Samir Faci wrote: > > Say it how you feel like saying it. Make something up, I do, half the > time > > people will just follow along. Plus, if you can make is sound cooler and > > give it more umph than "zen", do it, people will think highly of you :) > > For the longest time I always just said the letters S A T A when talking > about > SATA drives (usually online, I rarely talked to people in person about > it). > Then I was talking to someone and they kept saying "say-ta" and I had no > clue > what they were talking about. :o After that, I heard everyone saying it. > It's because of that, that I wasn't sure about Xen. > -- > Linux Users Of Northern Illinois - Technical Discussion > http://luni.org/mailman/listinfo/luni > From barry at vonahsen.com Fri Sep 21 07:10:25 2007 From: barry at vonahsen.com (Barry Von Ahsen) Date: Fri Sep 21 06:33:08 2007 Subject: [LUNI] Quick question on how to pronounce something In-Reply-To: <9db93b0e0709202241p28f8c3a4ma0c8688dd10893cf@mail.gmail.com> References: <200709201853.36322.skie@dragonsvalley.com> <9db93b0e0709201948j277a95a0qbf2119478f7d88c4@mail.gmail.com> <200709202252.02112.nixternal@ubuntu.com> <200709202351.52551.skie@dragonsvalley.com> <9db93b0e0709202241p28f8c3a4ma0c8688dd10893cf@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46F3A6A1.3020603@vonahsen.com> we in Des Moines decided linux was pronounced "throat-warbler-mangrove" to end our local debate only slightly more obscure than "icky icky ptang throckmorton" :) -barry Samir Faci wrote: > Yah, now let's talk about how to pronounce "Linux" 'cause some weird hippy, > he said his name was... Richard.. Sta... something called it differently. I > can't remember just how screwed up the prononciation was.. but wasn't quiet > what I'm used to hearing. > > /me ducks. > > -- > Samir > > On 9/20/07, Branko Kotur wrote: >> Thanks for all the responses. >> >> On Thursday 20 September 2007 10:52:02 pm Richard A. Johnson wrote: >>> On Thursday 20 September 2007, Samir Faci wrote: >>> Say it how you feel like saying it. Make something up, I do, half the >> time >>> people will just follow along. Plus, if you can make is sound cooler and >>> give it more umph than "zen", do it, people will think highly of you :) >> For the longest time I always just said the letters S A T A when talking >> about >> SATA drives (usually online, I rarely talked to people in person about >> it). >> Then I was talking to someone and they kept saying "say-ta" and I had no >> clue >> what they were talking about. :o After that, I heard everyone saying it. >> It's because of that, that I wasn't sure about Xen. >> -- >> Linux Users Of Northern Illinois - Technical Discussion >> http://luni.org/mailman/listinfo/luni >> From dbt at meat.net Fri Sep 21 09:13:41 2007 From: dbt at meat.net (David Terrell) Date: Fri Sep 21 08:13:44 2007 Subject: [LUNI] Quick question on how to pronounce something In-Reply-To: <200709202351.52551.skie@dragonsvalley.com> References: <200709201853.36322.skie@dragonsvalley.com> <9db93b0e0709201948j277a95a0qbf2119478f7d88c4@mail.gmail.com> <200709202252.02112.nixternal@ubuntu.com> <200709202351.52551.skie@dragonsvalley.com> Message-ID: <20070921131341.GC14841@sphinx.chicagopeoplez.org> On Thu, Sep 20, 2007 at 11:51:52PM -0500, Branko Kotur wrote: > Thanks for all the responses. > > On Thursday 20 September 2007 10:52:02 pm Richard A. Johnson wrote: > > On Thursday 20 September 2007, Samir Faci wrote: > > Say it how you feel like saying it. Make something up, I do, half the time > > people will just follow along. Plus, if you can make is sound cooler and > > give it more umph than "zen", do it, people will think highly of you :) > > For the longest time I always just said the letters S A T A when talking about > SATA drives (usually online, I rarely talked to people in person about it). > Then I was talking to someone and they kept saying "say-ta" and I had no clue > what they were talking about. :o After that, I heard everyone saying it. > It's because of that, that I wasn't sure about Xen. SATA is satan? Pronounciation should be Saa-tuh. -- David Terrell dbt@meat.net ((meatspace)) http://meat.net/ From kgarner at kgarner.com Fri Sep 21 09:53:00 2007 From: kgarner at kgarner.com (Keith T. Garner) Date: Fri Sep 21 08:53:06 2007 Subject: [LUNI] Quick question on how to pronounce something In-Reply-To: <200709202351.52551.skie@dragonsvalley.com> References: <200709201853.36322.skie@dragonsvalley.com> <9db93b0e0709201948j277a95a0qbf2119478f7d88c4@mail.gmail.com> <200709202252.02112.nixternal@ubuntu.com> <200709202351.52551.skie@dragonsvalley.com> Message-ID: This reminds me of when my boss was trying to help someone configure somthing and was flummoxed by the guy continueing to ask if the 'dins number.' Keith -- Keith T. Garner On Sep 20, 2007, at 11:51 PM, Branko Kotur wrote: > Thanks for all the responses. > > On Thursday 20 September 2007 10:52:02 pm Richard A. Johnson wrote: >> On Thursday 20 September 2007, Samir Faci wrote: >> Say it how you feel like saying it. Make something up, I do, half >> the time >> people will just follow along. Plus, if you can make is sound >> cooler and >> give it more umph than "zen", do it, people will think highly of >> you :) > > For the longest time I always just said the letters S A T A when > talking about > SATA drives (usually online, I rarely talked to people in person > about it). > Then I was talking to someone and they kept saying "say-ta" and I > had no clue > what they were talking about. :o After that, I heard everyone > saying it. > It's because of that, that I wasn't sure about Xen. > -- > Linux Users Of Northern Illinois - Technical Discussion > http://luni.org/mailman/listinfo/luni From luni at pyewacket.org Fri Sep 21 10:02:56 2007 From: luni at pyewacket.org (Mike Scott) Date: Fri Sep 21 11:03:05 2007 Subject: [LUNI] Quick question on how to pronounce something Message-ID: <20070921090256.6095274834031e3691077dcdffae0724.5f5f671864.wbe@email.secureserver.net> > For the longest time I always just said the letters S A T A when talking about > SATA drives (usually online, I rarely talked to people in person about it). > Then I was talking to someone and they kept saying "say-ta" and I had no clue > what they were talking about. I always pronounced the first "A" as Ah (like father) so I say SahTah. I have heard others pronounce the a as you do. I know Canadians tend to do this to vowels (ask a Canadian how they pronounce Linux and it sounds more like Lie-nucks. - Mike Scott From mscott at pyewacket.org Fri Sep 21 09:56:53 2007 From: mscott at pyewacket.org (Mike Scott) Date: Fri Sep 21 11:03:39 2007 Subject: [LUNI] Quick question on how to pronounce something Message-ID: <20070921085652.6095274834031e3691077dcdffae0724.96317575bb.wbe@email.secureserver.net> I thought it was pronounced "ni" (revised to "Nee-womm") :-) Actually I always thought it was "zen". Like xylophone. - Mike Scott > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: Re: [LUNI] Quick question on how to pronounce something > From: "Kenneth P. Stox" > Date: Thu, September 20, 2007 10:22 pm > To: Linux Users Of Northern Illinois - Technical Discussion > > > On Thu, 2007-09-20 at 21:48 -0500, Samir Faci wrote: > > well, sawwwrryyyyyyy.... it was hidden by all the gpg gibberish :-P > > > > Anyhoo, 2 votes for "zen" > > Actually, the correct pronunciation is "icky icky ptang throckmorton." > The 'e' is silent. ;-> > > -- > Linux Users Of Northern Illinois - Technical Discussion > http://luni.org/mailman/listinfo/luni From luni at pyewacket.org Fri Sep 21 10:05:25 2007 From: luni at pyewacket.org (Mike Scott) Date: Fri Sep 21 11:06:06 2007 Subject: [LUNI] Quick question on how to pronounce something Message-ID: <20070921090525.6095274834031e3691077dcdffae0724.e54ce75e74.wbe@email.secureserver.net> > we in Des Moines decided linux was pronounced "throat-warbler-mangrove" Yes, but it's spelled "Luxury Yacht". Lot of Python (Monty, that is) fans on the list, eh? - Mike Scott From skie at dragonsvalley.com Fri Sep 21 12:30:28 2007 From: skie at dragonsvalley.com (Branko Kotur) Date: Fri Sep 21 11:31:24 2007 Subject: [LUNI] Quick question on how to pronounce something In-Reply-To: <20070921090525.6095274834031e3691077dcdffae0724.e54ce75e74.wbe@email.secureserver.net> References: <20070921090525.6095274834031e3691077dcdffae0724.e54ce75e74.wbe@email.secureserver.net> Message-ID: <200709211130.28857.skie@dragonsvalley.com> On Friday 21 September 2007 11:05:25 am Mike Scott wrote: > Yes, but it's spelled "Luxury Yacht". > > Lot of Python (Monty, that is) fans on the list, eh? > > - Mike Scott I've yet to see any of those. Yes, I'm not a true geek. :( From sfaci at cs.uic.edu Fri Sep 21 12:54:17 2007 From: sfaci at cs.uic.edu (Samir Faci) Date: Fri Sep 21 11:54:22 2007 Subject: [LUNI] Fwd: [UIC-LUG] Flourish Meeting Oct 2nd In-Reply-To: <1172.131.193.230.103.1190391977.squirrel@webmail.uic.edu> References: <9db93b0e0709180822t1df07a07r8b72287ee264ee28@mail.gmail.com> <1172.131.193.230.103.1190391977.squirrel@webmail.uic.edu> Message-ID: <9db93b0e0709210954j7c0e4cbfna9293037c83bf538@mail.gmail.com> For anyone interest in helping out with the flourish conference, just an fyi. (for more info on flourish, you can check out last year's event at: www.flourishconf.com ) -- Samir ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Jen Anderson Date: Sep 21, 2007 11:26 AM Subject: [UIC-LUG] Flourish Meeting Oct 2nd To: LUG@listserv.uic.edu Hello All -- I was hoping to have the next Flourish planning meeting for Tuesday Oct 2nd. I don't have an agenda yet but I was hoping everyone could just keep the date open. We will now begin working more on implementing the ideas we have brainstormed up to this point, as well as any concerns others may have. Volunteers are encouraged to come! :) If you have anything you would like to discuss, please send me your topic and I will add it to the agenda. The meeting will most likely be at 5:30pm. The last meeting lasted 1.5 hours. Thank you! I hope to see you there! Jen From trev at advanced-reality.com Fri Sep 21 17:32:42 2007 From: trev at advanced-reality.com (Trev Peterson) Date: Fri Sep 21 16:35:15 2007 Subject: [LUNI] Getting rid of some hardware In-Reply-To: <1190315263.18720.82.camel@aegir.advanced-reality.com> References: <1190315263.18720.82.camel@aegir.advanced-reality.com> Message-ID: <1190410362.6407.7.camel@aegir.advanced-reality.com> Hello, A quick update: The Zaurus and UPS are gone. The following remain: 4 port Belking KVM w/ some cables (3 sets I believe) Channel Master 3x4 multiswitch (for sat TV) 2 CDrom drives 2 SFF (small form factor) PCs Pentium 2 generation w/ CD->IDE adapters (they make great linux firewalls), 1 has a PCI atheros card in it and the other has a noisey PSU, both have proc and memory I updated this to the list since people still seem interested in the Zaurus. If you want any of the above please respond to ME (not the list). Thanks, Trev -- Trev Peterson Advanced Reality Email: trev@advanced-reality.com Phone: +1 847 406 9018 From maney at two14.net Fri Sep 21 22:49:24 2007 From: maney at two14.net (Martin Maney) Date: Fri Sep 21 21:49:31 2007 Subject: [LUNI] Quick question on how to pronounce something In-Reply-To: <200709211130.28857.skie@dragonsvalley.com> References: <20070921090525.6095274834031e3691077dcdffae0724.e54ce75e74.wbe@email.secureserver.net> <200709211130.28857.skie@dragonsvalley.com> Message-ID: <20070922024924.GA11893@furrr.two14.net> On Fri, Sep 21, 2007 at 11:30:28AM -0500, Branko Kotur wrote: > On Friday 21 September 2007 11:05:25 am Mike Scott wrote: > > Lot of Python (Monty, that is) fans on the list, eh? > > I've yet to see any of those. Yes, I'm not a true geek. :( Media geeks aren't real geeks - they're just the scruffier edge of the mainstream. ;-) (FWIW, I have always found MP to consist of perhaps one part genius embedded in nine parts tedious repetition or other filler. Which still puts them well out ahead of most of what's out there, but it never fails to amaze me is that fans apparently love the nine parts. I mean, it starts out as a horse, maybe not in the very best of health but still with plenty of miles left in it, and ten minutes of tedium later there's this hole in the ground suitable to hold the foundation for a good sized house... and then they do a reprise, adding a cellar.) -- Anyone who says you can have a lot of widely dispersed people hack away on a complicated piece of code and avoid total anarchy has never managed a software project. -- Andy Tanenbaum From ken at stox.org Fri Sep 21 23:05:32 2007 From: ken at stox.org (Kenneth P. Stox) Date: Fri Sep 21 22:05:36 2007 Subject: [LUNI] Quick question on how to pronounce something In-Reply-To: <20070922024924.GA11893@furrr.two14.net> References: <20070921090525.6095274834031e3691077dcdffae0724.e54ce75e74.wbe@email.secureserver.net> <200709211130.28857.skie@dragonsvalley.com> <20070922024924.GA11893@furrr.two14.net> Message-ID: <1190430332.11446.110.camel@stox.dyndns.org> The Larch. From svbechtolsheim at yahoo.com Sun Sep 23 08:54:16 2007 From: svbechtolsheim at yahoo.com (Stephan V Bechtolsheim) Date: Sun Sep 23 09:55:17 2007 Subject: [LUNI] USB connected disk drive - connecting to Windows and Linux Message-ID: <236487.95925.qm@web51610.mail.re2.yahoo.com> I have an HP notebook computer (running Windows XP) to which I want to connect a USB portable / external hard drive. That same USB portable hard drive I want to also be able to connect to a Linux computer for the purpose of backing it up (using rsync). Anyone done that? Any suggestions how? Thank you! StvB P.S. I have to admit that I am being lazy here in that I did not research the subject by myself at all. It's Sunday morning and right now I feel more like drinking coffee and reading my paper and not googling it ..... I was thinking though that that should work ...... From mark at msbrepairs.com Sun Sep 23 19:59:21 2007 From: mark at msbrepairs.com (Mark Stuart Burge) Date: Sun Sep 23 19:03:33 2007 Subject: [LUNI] USB connected disk drive - connecting to Windows and Linux In-Reply-To: <236487.95925.qm@web51610.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <236487.95925.qm@web51610.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46F6FDD9.9010709@msbrepairs.com> If you don't need to carry permissions, then you can format the drive to fat32. Stephan V Bechtolsheim wrote: > I have an HP notebook computer (running Windows XP) to which I want to connect a USB portable / external hard drive. > That same USB portable hard drive I want to also be able to connect to a Linux computer for the purpose of backing it up > (using rsync). > > Anyone done that? Any suggestions how? > > Thank you! > > StvB > > P.S. I have to admit that I am being lazy here in that I did not research the subject by myself at all. It's Sunday morning and right now I feel more like drinking coffee and reading my paper and not googling it ..... I was thinking though that that should work ...... > > > > From kgarner at kgarner.com Sun Sep 23 20:16:01 2007 From: kgarner at kgarner.com (Keith T. Garner) Date: Sun Sep 23 19:15:59 2007 Subject: [LUNI] USB connected disk drive - connecting to Windows and Linux In-Reply-To: <46F6FDD9.9010709@msbrepairs.com> References: <236487.95925.qm@web51610.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <46F6FDD9.9010709@msbrepairs.com> Message-ID: <46F701C1.20803@kgarner.com> On 9/23/07 6:59 PM, Mark Stuart Burge wrote: > If you don't need to carry permissions, then you can format the drive to > fat32. Of, if you don't mind a few extra steps, you could make a disk image of an ext2/3 partition and mount that via -oloop and do the rsyncs there. That image will always take the space that image takes, but it's a trick to preserve the permissions and still use the disk under windows. Keith -- Keith T. Garner kgarner@kgarner.com "Make no little plans; they have no magic to stir men's blood." - Daniel H. Burnham From trev at advanced-reality.com Mon Sep 24 10:56:41 2007 From: trev at advanced-reality.com (Trev Peterson) Date: Mon Sep 24 10:00:32 2007 Subject: [LUNI] USB connected disk drive - connecting to Windows and Linux In-Reply-To: <46F701C1.20803@kgarner.com> References: <236487.95925.qm@web51610.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <46F6FDD9.9010709@msbrepairs.com> <46F701C1.20803@kgarner.com> Message-ID: <1190645801.11341.9.camel@aegir.advanced-reality.com> If the backup data is fairly large (6 - 7+ GB) I do not think this will work since fat32 has a pretty small max file size (4GB). This can also cause problem if you have any large files on the filesystem to be backed-up. I can offer 2 suggestions: 1. Partition the external drive to have a Linux partition (ext2, xfs etc.) and a windows partition (ntfs). This is quick and easy but is not the most efficient use of your drive space. If the drive is large you may wish to do this though. 2. Format the partition ntfs and use ntfs-3g ( http://www.ntfs-3g.org/ ) to read/write to it. I believe ubuntu feisty includes this by default. This is more work (unless you are running feisty pre-release) but is more efficient use of space (by a fair margin). HTH Trev On Sun, 2007-09-23 at 19:16 -0500, Keith T. Garner wrote: > On 9/23/07 6:59 PM, Mark Stuart Burge wrote: > > If you don't need to carry permissions, then you can format the drive to > > fat32. > > Of, if you don't mind a few extra steps, you could make a disk image of an > ext2/3 partition and mount that via -oloop and do the rsyncs there. That > image will always take the space that image takes, but it's a trick to > preserve the permissions and still use the disk under windows. -- Trev Peterson Advanced Reality Email: trev@advanced-reality.com Phone: +1 847 406 9018 From luni at pyewacket.org Mon Sep 24 10:41:04 2007 From: luni at pyewacket.org (Mike Scott) Date: Mon Sep 24 11:41:13 2007 Subject: [LUNI] USB connected disk drive - connecting to Windows and Linux Message-ID: <20070924094104.6095274834031e3691077dcdffae0724.0d2dd9343f.wbe@email.secureserver.net> I posted a similar question a few months back and received a suggestion that has worked very well for me. Take a look at EXT2_IFS http://www.fs-driver.org/ Based on the suggestions I got, I partitioned my USB drive with a small FAT partition and put the EXT2 IFS installer on it. The rest of the drive is partitioned and formatted as an EXT3 filesystem which mounts directly under Linux. On the 'doze boxes, I install the IFS driver and the drive can be accessed directly like any other drive. It is only EXT2, so no journalling under Windows, but aside from that, it works great. Based on a suggestion in the E2FSIFS ReadMe, I changed the partition type number (using fdisk in Linux) of the EXT3 partition from 0x83 to 0x07. This makes the volume mount automatically under Windows as Windows only checks this number and mounts the partition thinking it is NTFS. The IFS driver takes over and allows read/write of the volume. Also, since Linux ignores the number and looks directly at the partition itself, it too mounts without complaint. HTH - Mike Scott > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: [LUNI] USB connected disk drive - connecting to Windows and > Linux > From: Stephan V Bechtolsheim > Date: Sun, September 23, 2007 9:54 am > To: luni@luni.org > > I have an HP notebook computer (running Windows XP) to which I want to connect a USB portable / external hard drive. > That same USB portable hard drive I want to also be able to connect to a Linux computer for the purpose of backing it up > (using rsync). > > Anyone done that? Any suggestions how? > > Thank you! > > StvB > > P.S. I have to admit that I am being lazy here in that I did not research the subject by myself at all. It's Sunday morning and right now I feel more like drinking coffee and reading my paper and not googling it ..... I was thinking though that that should work ...... > > > > -- > Linux Users Of Northern Illinois - Technical Discussion > http://luni.org/mailman/listinfo/luni From mark at msbrepairs.com Mon Sep 24 13:29:55 2007 From: mark at msbrepairs.com (Mark Stuart Burge) Date: Mon Sep 24 12:25:25 2007 Subject: [LUNI] USB connected disk drive - connecting to Windows and Linux In-Reply-To: <1190645801.11341.9.camel@aegir.advanced-reality.com> References: <236487.95925.qm@web51610.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <46F6FDD9.9010709@msbrepairs.com> <46F701C1.20803@kgarner.com> <1190645801.11341.9.camel@aegir.advanced-reality.com> Message-ID: <46F7F413.6070305@msbrepairs.com> Good point. Thinking back to the last time I used that method, I was not using a compressed backup file, but using rdiff-backup http://www.nongnu.org/rdiff-backup/ It creates a direct copy of the original location in a folder of your choice, then works like an incremental backup, just overwriting the files that have changed and adding the ones that are new. You do need to keep your eye on it though to make sure it doesnt go bad (I usually recommend multiple external drives, to keep at least one off site copy while the other is being used overnight. This worked in my case, as I wanted to have a recovery method that didn't lock me out due to permissions - making it easy to get users up and running on their own machines, whilst server hardware was being repaired. (somewhat crude in the IT world, but faster and more productive for a small office of 20 users or so. As the data was in users' own sub folders, it would make it easy to run to another machine and get things happening without waiting for extraction etc. I think ntfs is no longer a problem, but back then it was. Trev Peterson wrote: > If the backup data is fairly large (6 - 7+ GB) I do not think this will > work since fat32 has a pretty small max file size (4GB). This can also > cause problem if you have any large files on the filesystem to be > backed-up. > > From jrstark at barntowire.com Mon Sep 24 13:47:22 2007 From: jrstark at barntowire.com (Janine Starykowicz) Date: Mon Sep 24 12:53:14 2007 Subject: [LUNI] Windows IE6 emulator? Message-ID: <46F7F82A.5020102@barntowire.com> Off topic because this is a Macintosh user, but I've had the same issues with Linux users in the past as well. They are currently using Kinko's. I have a form generated by Microsoft Visual Studio .NET 7.1 on a secure server. Yes it is ugly, no there is no other option and I don't have access to the generator. Are there any emulator scripts/addons/mods out there that will allow those people who have other than state-of-the-art Windows PCs to interact with this monstrosity? Even some people using IE7 can't work it. The current Mac user has tried fresh downloads of Opera, Safari, IE and Firefox, no luck with any of them. Thanks for any advice! Janine From linux at unliketea.com Mon Sep 24 15:50:46 2007 From: linux at unliketea.com (Steve Pribyl) Date: Mon Sep 24 15:02:21 2007 Subject: [LUNI] Over thinking the DMZ Message-ID: <39566.69.17.21.59.1190663446.squirrel@mail.unliketea.com> Hey Folks, I am in the process of building a LAMP e-commerce site as was wondering the utility of a DMZ apache and Trusted apache servers verses just a single server in the DMZ? Thanks Steve From lgj at usenix.org Mon Sep 24 17:14:15 2007 From: lgj at usenix.org (Lionel Garth Jones) Date: Mon Sep 24 18:45:07 2007 Subject: [LUNI] LISA '07 - Latest News and Top 5 Reasons to Attend Message-ID: <46F844C7.4060907@usenix.org> Top 5 Reasons to Attend LISA '07 LISA '07 is coming up in November. New activities are still being added. Take a look at a few of the reasons to attend: # 1. Top-Notch Training Highly respected experts provide you with new information and skills you can take back to work to tomorrow. This year's program includes: * David N. Blank-Edelman on Over the Edge System Administration * Gerald Carter on Implementing [Open]LDAP Directories * Jacob Farmer on Disk-to-Disk Backup and Eliminating Backup System Bottlenecks * ?leen Frisch & Kyrre Begnum on Virtualization: VMs! What Are They Good For? * Rudi van Drunen on Hardware for the (Software-Oriented) Sysadmin * And more . . . The full training program can be found at: http://www.usenix.org/lisa07/training/ # 2. Invited Talks Industry luminaries discuss timely and important topics such as: * Keynote address by John Strassner, Motorola Fellow and Vice President, Autonomic Networking and Communications, Motorola Research Labs, on "Autonomic Administration: HAL 9000 Meets Gene Roddenberry" * Bruce Moxon, Network Appliance, Inc., "A Service-Oriented Data Grid: Beyond Storage Virtualization" * Erik Nygren, Akamai Technologies, "Experiences with Scalable Network Operations at Akamai" * Kenneth G. Brill, Uptime Institute, "The Economic Meltdown of Moore's Law" * And more . . . # 3. You'll See It Here First Cutting-edge practices and new or developing work are presented in the Refereed Papers Track, the Work-in-Progress Reports, and our new Poster Session Note: Poster submissions are open until October 14, 2007. Submitting a poster is a great way to let other people know about your work and to meet other people who are interested in the same issues. Find out more at: http://www.usenix.org/events/lisa07/activities.html#poster # 4. Get Answers to Your Toughest Questions in Guru Is In and Hit the Ground Running Sessions Check out the full technical program at: http://www.usenix.org/events/lisa07/tech/ # 5. Mingle with Industry Leaders The "hallway track," evening events, and the Vendor Exhibition offer additional opportunities to network with peers to gain that all-important insider IT knowledge. Take a look at the entire list of activities at: http://www.usenix.org/events/lisa07/activities.html Don't miss this opportunity to benefit from peer interaction on the topics that mean the most to you. For complete program information and to register, see: http://www.usenix.org/lisa07/progb The Early Bird Registration Discount Deadline is coming: Register by Friday, October 19, and save up to $300! Bringing 5 or more people from the same organization? Take advantage of the Multiple Employee Discount. For more details, see: http://www.usenix.org/events/lisa07/registration/ We're pleased to bring LISA to Dallas, TX, and we look forward to seeing you there. Paul Anderson, University of Edinburgh LISA '07 Program Chair lisa07chair@usenix.org P.S.: Please note the Special Attendee Room Rate: $175 single/double plus 15% tax at the Hyatt Regency Dallas. ----------------------------------------------------------- LISA '07: 21st Large Installation System Administration Conference http://www.usenix.org/lisa07/progb November 11-16, 2007, Dallas, TX Early Bird Registration Deadline: October 19, 2007 Sponsored by USENIX and SAGE ----------------------------------------------------------- From knura at yahoo.com Tue Sep 25 18:43:44 2007 From: knura at yahoo.com (Arun Khan) Date: Tue Sep 25 07:20:34 2007 Subject: [LUNI] LUNI wiki main page in Chinese Message-ID: <200709251743.44162.knura@yahoo.com> I was showing the LUNI home page to one of my friends and noticed it is in Chinese. http://www.luni.org/wiki/index.php/Main_Page -- Arun Khan From sfaci at cs.uic.edu Tue Sep 25 09:34:35 2007 From: sfaci at cs.uic.edu (Samir Faci) Date: Tue Sep 25 08:34:38 2007 Subject: [LUNI] LUNI wiki main page in Chinese In-Reply-To: <200709251743.44162.knura@yahoo.com> References: <200709251743.44162.knura@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9db93b0e0709250634k3e6e4b08pfa7339450dd6935b@mail.gmail.com> We have "registered" bots making the changes to the wiki. Fixed the page, but this is getting annoying. (I think i got the most recent version of the home page, either ways it looks better then the chineese garble) -- Samir On 9/25/07, Arun Khan wrote: > > I was showing the LUNI home page to one of my friends and noticed it is > in Chinese. > > http://www.luni.org/wiki/index.php/Main_Page > > -- Arun Khan > -- > Linux Users Of Northern Illinois - Technical Discussion > http://luni.org/mailman/listinfo/luni > From aclose at gmail.com Tue Sep 25 16:20:15 2007 From: aclose at gmail.com (Andrew Close) Date: Tue Sep 25 15:20:35 2007 Subject: [LUNI] Cable Modems... Message-ID: hey all, i currently have a Cable Modem (Motorola something or other...) that was provided to me when i signed up for Comcast's 'High Speed' Internet ~3 years ago. i'm going to be switching to WOW for Cable and Internet service and was wondering if there was any reason to buy a new cable modem or just continue to use the one i currently own. i'm not sure what progress has been made to cable modems in the past three years. :) as far as i know, mine works. is there any benefit to upgrading? thanks! From skie at dragonsvalley.com Tue Sep 25 16:42:03 2007 From: skie at dragonsvalley.com (Branko Kotur) Date: Tue Sep 25 15:41:51 2007 Subject: [LUNI] Cable Modems... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200709251542.03680.skie@dragonsvalley.com> I always thought they provided the modems for free with service. On Tuesday 25 September 2007 3:20:15 pm Andrew Close wrote: > hey all, > > i currently have a Cable Modem (Motorola something or other...) that > was provided to me when i signed up for Comcast's 'High Speed' > Internet ~3 years ago. i'm going to be switching to WOW for Cable and > Internet service and was wondering if there was any reason to buy a > new cable modem or just continue to use the one i currently own. i'm > not sure what progress has been made to cable modems in the past three > years. :) as far as i know, mine works. is there any benefit to > upgrading? > > thanks! From seva at sevatech.com Tue Sep 25 17:08:20 2007 From: seva at sevatech.com (Seva Epsteyn) Date: Tue Sep 25 16:08:22 2007 Subject: [LUNI] LUNI wiki main page in Chinese In-Reply-To: <9db93b0e0709250634k3e6e4b08pfa7339450dd6935b@mail.gmail.com> References: <200709251743.44162.knura@yahoo.com> <9db93b0e0709250634k3e6e4b08pfa7339450dd6935b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I think I am just going to go back to the static page for luni.org -Seva On Tue, 25 Sep 2007, Samir Faci wrote: > We have "registered" bots making the changes to the wiki. > > Fixed the page, but this is getting annoying. (I think i got the most > recent version of the home page, either ways it looks better then the > chineese garble) > > -- > Samir > > On 9/25/07, Arun Khan wrote: > > > > I was showing the LUNI home page to one of my friends and noticed it is > > in Chinese. > > > > http://www.luni.org/wiki/index.php/Main_Page > > > > -- Arun Khan > > -- > > Linux Users Of Northern Illinois - Technical Discussion > > http://luni.org/mailman/listinfo/luni > > > From jrstark at barntowire.com Tue Sep 25 17:12:04 2007 From: jrstark at barntowire.com (Janine Starykowicz) Date: Tue Sep 25 16:11:13 2007 Subject: [LUNI] Cable Modems... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46F979A4.3060409@barntowire.com> Unless you purchased it, you need to give that modem back to Comcast when you cancel your service. Janine Andrew Close wrote: > hey all, > > i currently have a Cable Modem (Motorola something or other...) that > was provided to me when i signed up for Comcast's 'High Speed' > Internet ~3 years ago. i'm going to be switching to WOW for Cable and > Internet service and was wondering if there was any reason to buy a > new cable modem or just continue to use the one i currently own. i'm > not sure what progress has been made to cable modems in the past three > years. :) as far as i know, mine works. is there any benefit to > upgrading? > > thanks! > From aclose at gmail.com Tue Sep 25 17:11:53 2007 From: aclose at gmail.com (Andrew Close) Date: Tue Sep 25 16:12:00 2007 Subject: [LUNI] Cable Modems... In-Reply-To: <200709251542.03680.skie@dragonsvalley.com> References: <200709251542.03680.skie@dragonsvalley.com> Message-ID: nope, it's a lease deal. i believe it's ~ $2.50 a month with WOW and ~$5 a month with Comcast. but that may depend on what plan you signed up with and your area, etc... but they will also let you provide your own in most cases. On 9/25/07, Branko Kotur wrote: > I always thought they provided the modems for free with service. > > On Tuesday 25 September 2007 3:20:15 pm Andrew Close wrote: > > hey all, > > > > i currently have a Cable Modem (Motorola something or other...) that > > was provided to me when i signed up for Comcast's 'High Speed' > > Internet ~3 years ago. i'm going to be switching to WOW for Cable and > > Internet service and was wondering if there was any reason to buy a > > new cable modem or just continue to use the one i currently own. i'm > > not sure what progress has been made to cable modems in the past three > > years. :) as far as i know, mine works. is there any benefit to > > upgrading? > > > > thanks! > > > -- > Linux Users Of Northern Illinois - Technical Discussion > http://luni.org/mailman/listinfo/luni > From me at heyjay.com Tue Sep 25 19:59:01 2007 From: me at heyjay.com (Jay Strauss) Date: Tue Sep 25 18:59:09 2007 Subject: [LUNI] Cable Modems... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 9/25/07, Andrew Close wrote: > hey all, > > i'm going to be switching to WOW for Cable Where are you located, that they offer WOW. I just tried my home zip and my office zip (chicago) and neither are in the service area. Thanks Jay From aclose at gmail.com Wed Sep 26 08:53:33 2007 From: aclose at gmail.com (Andrew Close) Date: Wed Sep 26 07:53:36 2007 Subject: [LUNI] Cable Modems... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 9/25/07, Jay Strauss wrote: > On 9/25/07, Andrew Close wrote: > > hey all, > > > > i'm going to be switching to WOW for Cable > > Where are you located, that they offer WOW. I just tried my home zip > and my office zip (chicago) and neither are in the service area. 60139 - Glendale Heights i believe 'most' of the western suburbs now have a choice between WOW and Comcast for cable. WOW is still upgrading parts of their network for Internet service. from my little bit of research WOW offers more for less than Comcast. i have a couple friends that have been very happy with their service as well. they also offer three static IPs with their internet packages where Comcast does not unless you order business service or pay extra. oh, and most importantly; WOW offers Sci-Fi for all their cable packages and Comcast only offers Sci-Fi for their premium digital package and up. ;) From luni at pyewacket.org Wed Sep 26 07:57:52 2007 From: luni at pyewacket.org (Mike Scott) Date: Wed Sep 26 08:58:00 2007 Subject: [LUNI] Cable Modems... Message-ID: <20070926065752.6095274834031e3691077dcdffae0724.3d5eeb6e34.wbe@email.secureserver.net> > I always thought they provided the modems for free with service. I believe you misspelled a word. They provide the modems for a "fee" not "free". I realized I was paying about $2.50 a month for the cable modem from WOW and bought a Linksys unit. AFAIK, you just have to give WOW the MAC address and they activate the modem on the service. - Mike Scott From skie at dragonsvalley.com Wed Sep 26 10:10:40 2007 From: skie at dragonsvalley.com (Branko Kotur) Date: Wed Sep 26 09:10:19 2007 Subject: [LUNI] Cable Modems... In-Reply-To: <20070926065752.6095274834031e3691077dcdffae0724.3d5eeb6e34.wbe@email.secureserver.net> References: <20070926065752.6095274834031e3691077dcdffae0724.3d5eeb6e34.wbe@email.secureserver.net> Message-ID: <200709260910.40709.skie@dragonsvalley.com> On Wednesday 26 September 2007 8:57:52 am Mike Scott wrote: > I believe you misspelled a word. They provide the modems for a "fee" > not "free". > I realized I was paying about $2.50 a month for the cable modem from WOW > and bought a Linksys unit. > > AFAIK, you just have to give WOW the MAC address and they activate the > modem on the service. > > - Mike Scott I don't have cable, so I don't know how they work. As mentioned, I thought the modem was free. From richard at rushlogistics.com Wed Sep 26 08:14:28 2007 From: richard at rushlogistics.com (Richard Reina) Date: Wed Sep 26 09:21:18 2007 Subject: [LUNI] Help or New Distro Recomendation Please Message-ID: <943205.92498.qm@web613.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I have been battling with yum to install videolanclient (vlc) for days now and am about ready to give up and do a fresh install of another distro ( now running Centos OS 4.3. ) I have fished around and have tried about every recommended remedy for this problem to no avail. If anyone has any suggestions how I can fix this problem I would appreciate hearing it. Otherwise if anyone knows of a distro that can handle a yum vlc install I would also appreciate this info. Thanks [root@localhost Desktop]# yum list globulation Setting up repositories Reading repository metadata in from local files [root@localhost Desktop]# yum -y install vlc Setting up Install Process Setting up repositories vlc-source 100% |=========================| 951 B 00:00 vlc 100% |=========================| 951 B 00:00 update 100% |=========================| 951 B 00:00 vlc-contrib 100% |=========================| 951 B 00:00 vlc-devel 100% |=========================| 951 B 00:00 base 100% |=========================| 1.1 kB 00:00 addons 100% |=========================| 951 B 00:00 extras 100% |=========================| 1.1 kB 00:00 Reading repository metadata in from local files Parsing package install arguments Resolving Dependencies --> Populating transaction set with selected packages. Please wait. ---> Package vlc.i386 0:0.8.5-1 set to be updated --> Running transaction check --> Processing Dependency: libdbus-1.so.1 for package: vlc --> Processing Dependency: libFLAC.so.7 for package: vlc --> Processing Dependency: libdirac_decoder.so.0 for package: vlc --> Processing Dependency: libdirac_encoder.so.0 for package: vlc --> Processing Dependency: libhal.so.1 for package: vlc --> Processing Dependency: libstdc++.so.6(GLIBCXX_3.4.4) for package: vlc --> Processing Dependency: libSDL_image-1.2.so.0 for package: vlc --> Processing Dependency: libstdc++.so.6(GLIBCXX_3.4.6) for package: vlc --> Restarting Dependency Resolution with new changes. --> Populating transaction set with selected packages. Please wait. ---> Package dirac.i386 0:0.5.3-1 set to be updated --> Running transaction check --> Processing Dependency: libdbus-1.so.1 for package: vlc --> Processing Dependency: libstdc++.so.6(GLIBCXX_3.4.4) for package: dirac --> Processing Dependency: libFLAC.so.7 for package: vlc --> Processing Dependency: libstdc++.so.6(GLIBCXX_3.4.6) for package: dirac --> Processing Dependency: libhal.so.1 for package: vlc --> Processing Dependency: libstdc++.so.6(GLIBCXX_3.4.4) for package: vlc --> Processing Dependency: libSDL_image-1.2.so.0 for package: vlc --> Processing Dependency: libstdc++.so.6(GLIBCXX_3.4.6) for package: vlc --> Finished Dependency Resolution Error: Missing Dependency: libdbus-1.so.1 is needed by package vlc Error: Missing Dependency: libFLAC.so.7 is needed by package vlc Error: Missing Dependency: libhal.so.1 is needed by package vlc Error: Missing Dependency: libstdc++.so.6(GLIBCXX_3.4.4) is needed by package vlc Error: Missing Dependency: libSDL_image-1.2.so.0 is needed by package vlc Error: Missing Dependency: libstdc++.so.6(GLIBCXX_3.4.6) is needed by package vlc Error: Missing Dependency: libstdc++.so.6(GLIBCXX_3.4.4) is needed by package dirac Error: Missing Dependency: libstdc++.so.6(GLIBCXX_3.4.6) is needed by package dirac Thanks in advance for any help. Richard Your beliefs become your thoughts. Your thoughts become your words. Your words become your actions. Your actions become your habits. Your habits become your values. Your values become your destiny. -- Mahatma Gandhi From skie at dragonsvalley.com Wed Sep 26 10:31:08 2007 From: skie at dragonsvalley.com (Branko Kotur) Date: Wed Sep 26 09:30:46 2007 Subject: [LUNI] Help or New Distro Recomendation Please In-Reply-To: <943205.92498.qm@web613.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <943205.92498.qm@web613.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200709260931.08272.skie@dragonsvalley.com> Have you tried compiling from source? One thing I would try is to install the dependancies manually (either via yum or by downloading the specific RPM's for them). On Wednesday 26 September 2007 9:14:28 am Richard Reina wrote: > I have been battling with yum to install videolanclient (vlc) for days now > and am about ready to give up and do a fresh install of another distro ( > now running Centos OS 4.3. ) I have fished around and have tried about > every recommended remedy for this problem to no avail. If anyone has any > suggestions how I can fix this problem I would appreciate hearing it. > Otherwise if anyone knows of a distro that can handle a yum vlc install I > would also appreciate this info. Thanks > > [root@localhost Desktop]# yum list globulation > Setting up repositories > Reading repository metadata in from local files > [root@localhost Desktop]# yum -y install vlc > Setting up Install Process > Setting up repositories > vlc-source 100% |=========================| 951 B 00:00 > vlc 100% |=========================| 951 B 00:00 > update 100% |=========================| 951 B 00:00 > vlc-contrib 100% |=========================| 951 B 00:00 > vlc-devel 100% |=========================| 951 B 00:00 > base 100% |=========================| 1.1 kB 00:00 > addons 100% |=========================| 951 B 00:00 > extras 100% |=========================| 1.1 kB 00:00 > Reading repository metadata in from local files > Parsing package install arguments > Resolving Dependencies > --> Populating transaction set with selected packages. Please wait. > ---> Package vlc.i386 0:0.8.5-1 set to be updated > --> Running transaction check > --> Processing Dependency: libdbus-1.so.1 for package: vlc > --> Processing Dependency: libFLAC.so.7 for package: vlc > --> Processing Dependency: libdirac_decoder.so.0 for package: vlc > --> Processing Dependency: libdirac_encoder.so.0 for package: vlc > --> Processing Dependency: libhal.so.1 for package: vlc > --> Processing Dependency: libstdc++.so.6(GLIBCXX_3.4.4) for package: vlc > --> Processing Dependency: libSDL_image-1.2.so.0 for package: vlc > --> Processing Dependency: libstdc++.so.6(GLIBCXX_3.4.6) for package: vlc > --> Restarting Dependency Resolution with new changes. > --> Populating transaction set with selected packages. Please wait. > ---> Package dirac.i386 0:0.5.3-1 set to be updated > --> Running transaction check > --> Processing Dependency: libdbus-1.so.1 for package: vlc > --> Processing Dependency: libstdc++.so.6(GLIBCXX_3.4.4) for package: dirac > --> Processing Dependency: libFLAC.so.7 for package: vlc > --> Processing Dependency: libstdc++.so.6(GLIBCXX_3.4.6) for package: dirac > --> Processing Dependency: libhal.so.1 for package: vlc > --> Processing Dependency: libstdc++.so.6(GLIBCXX_3.4.4) for package: vlc > --> Processing Dependency: libSDL_image-1.2.so.0 for package: vlc > --> Processing Dependency: libstdc++.so.6(GLIBCXX_3.4.6) for package: vlc > --> Finished Dependency Resolution > Error: Missing Dependency: libdbus-1.so.1 is needed by package vlc > Error: Missing Dependency: libFLAC.so.7 is needed by package vlc > Error: Missing Dependency: libhal.so.1 is needed by package vlc > Error: Missing Dependency: libstdc++.so.6(GLIBCXX_3.4.4) is needed by > package vlc Error: Missing Dependency: libSDL_image-1.2.so.0 is needed by > package vlc Error: Missing Dependency: libstdc++.so.6(GLIBCXX_3.4.6) is > needed by package vlc Error: Missing Dependency: > libstdc++.so.6(GLIBCXX_3.4.4) is needed by package dirac Error: Missing > Dependency: libstdc++.so.6(GLIBCXX_3.4.6) is needed by package dirac > > > Thanks in advance for any help. > > Richard > > > > > > > Your beliefs become your thoughts. Your thoughts become your words. Your > words become your actions. Your actions become your habits. Your habits > become your values. Your values become your destiny. -- Mahatma Gandhi From mark at msbrepairs.com Wed Sep 26 10:45:58 2007 From: mark at msbrepairs.com (Mark Stuart Burge) Date: Wed Sep 26 09:41:22 2007 Subject: [LUNI] Help or New Distro Recomendation Please In-Reply-To: <943205.92498.qm@web613.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <943205.92498.qm@web613.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46FA70A6.7040407@msbrepairs.com> Well, not exactly a proper answer to your question, but if you are looking for a distro that can handle multimedia well, then I would recommend ubuntu or ubuntustudio. Ubuntu uses the apt-get method of installing from the command line, or synaptic if you want an easy to browse installer. I have installed vlc on ubuntu several times on different machines, and it has gone in smoothly each time. UbuntuStudio gives you a little more than you need, like low latency kernel, jackd audio routing and more. Richard Reina wrote: > I have been battling with yum to install videolanclient (vlc) for days now and am about ready to give up and do a fresh install of another distro ( now running Centos OS 4.3. ) I have fished around and have tried about every recommended remedy for this problem to no avail. If anyone has any suggestions how I can fix this problem I would appreciate hearing it. Otherwise if anyone knows of a distro that can handle a yum vlc install I would also appreciate this info. Thanks > > [root@localhost Desktop]# yum list globulation > Setting up repositories > Reading repository metadata in from local files > [root@localhost Desktop]# yum -y install vlc > Setting up Install Process > Setting up repositories > vlc-source 100% |=========================| 951 B 00:00 > vlc 100% |=========================| 951 B 00:00 > update 100% |=========================| 951 B 00:00 > vlc-contrib 100% |=========================| 951 B 00:00 > vlc-devel 100% |=========================| 951 B 00:00 > base 100% |=========================| 1.1 kB 00:00 > addons 100% |=========================| 951 B 00:00 > extras 100% |=========================| 1.1 kB 00:00 > Reading repository metadata in from local files > Parsing package install arguments > Resolving Dependencies > --> Populating transaction set with selected packages. Please wait. > ---> Package vlc.i386 0:0.8.5-1 set to be updated > --> Running transaction check > --> Processing Dependency: libdbus-1.so.1 for package: vlc > --> Processing Dependency: libFLAC.so.7 for package: vlc > --> Processing Dependency: libdirac_decoder.so.0 for package: vlc > --> Processing Dependency: libdirac_encoder.so.0 for package: vlc > --> Processing Dependency: libhal.so.1 for package: vlc > --> Processing Dependency: libstdc++.so.6(GLIBCXX_3.4.4) for package: vlc > --> Processing Dependency: libSDL_image-1.2.so.0 for package: vlc > --> Processing Dependency: libstdc++.so.6(GLIBCXX_3.4.6) for package: vlc > --> Restarting Dependency Resolution with new changes. > --> Populating transaction set with selected packages. Please wait. > ---> Package dirac.i386 0:0.5.3-1 set to be updated > --> Running transaction check > --> Processing Dependency: libdbus-1.so.1 for package: vlc > --> Processing Dependency: libstdc++.so.6(GLIBCXX_3.4.4) for package: dirac > --> Processing Dependency: libFLAC.so.7 for package: vlc > --> Processing Dependency: libstdc++.so.6(GLIBCXX_3.4.6) for package: dirac > --> Processing Dependency: libhal.so.1 for package: vlc > --> Processing Dependency: libstdc++.so.6(GLIBCXX_3.4.4) for package: vlc > --> Processing Dependency: libSDL_image-1.2.so.0 for package: vlc > --> Processing Dependency: libstdc++.so.6(GLIBCXX_3.4.6) for package: vlc > --> Finished Dependency Resolution > Error: Missing Dependency: libdbus-1.so.1 is needed by package vlc > Error: Missing Dependency: libFLAC.so.7 is needed by package vlc > Error: Missing Dependency: libhal.so.1 is needed by package vlc > Error: Missing Dependency: libstdc++.so.6(GLIBCXX_3.4.4) is needed by package vlc > Error: Missing Dependency: libSDL_image-1.2.so.0 is needed by package vlc > Error: Missing Dependency: libstdc++.so.6(GLIBCXX_3.4.6) is needed by package vlc > Error: Missing Dependency: libstdc++.so.6(GLIBCXX_3.4.4) is needed by package dirac > Error: Missing Dependency: libstdc++.so.6(GLIBCXX_3.4.6) is needed by package dirac > > > Thanks in advance for any help. > > Richard > > > > > > > Your beliefs become your thoughts. Your thoughts become your words. Your words become your actions. Your actions become your habits. Your habits become your values. Your values become your destiny. -- Mahatma Gandhi > From lists at redboy.cx Wed Sep 26 10:33:07 2007 From: lists at redboy.cx (sten) Date: Wed Sep 26 09:50:13 2007 Subject: [LUNI] Cyrus vs. Courier for small installations Message-ID: <197e92302b14748658eb8fec47da3b64@redboy.cx> I've been running Cyrus for a couple years now, but having to use the sasldb and sieveshell never really rubbed me right. I stayed because I like having a mailstore outside $HOME, and while I dislike the sieveshell, having a mail filtering language I can read and understand (vs. procmail) is really great. I had run Courier for a while, and had the vague notion that I could put a mailstore somewhere other than $HOME via a per-user configuration, and now I was just reading about Maildrop which somehow went completely under my radar. Now I'm itching to go back, but before I go whole-hog and migrate, I thought I'd ping the list. My only remaining concerns are regarding speed and memory usage- I know Cyrus is almost certainly faster for full-text searching, which I do use at least a couple times a week, but my server currently only has 2 real accounts, maybe 100 messages on a busy day after Postgrey rejects a ton. Aside from searching, has anyone noticed significant speed differences or differences in memory footprint between the two? TIA, Sten From scott at cashnetusa.com Wed Sep 26 10:54:49 2007 From: scott at cashnetusa.com (Scott Lockwood) Date: Wed Sep 26 10:22:11 2007 Subject: [LUNI] LUNI wiki main page in Chinese In-Reply-To: <9db93b0e0709250634k3e6e4b08pfa7339450dd6935b@mail.gmail.com> References: <200709251